The State Of 3 Gunning

[Flexmoney]

Hey all...how about we move on past the "hot holstering" issue.

It is apparent that nobody is going to change their minds.

Perhaps there are other aspects of the original question that we could spend some time on?

[SinistralRifleman]

and let's not forget Open Class type holsters!!!!

Open class type holsters are specifically prohibited at our match.

[Wakal]

EDIT: Zak is My Hero

(BELOW TEXT WRITTEN BEFORE ZAK'S LAST POST):

Sooooooo....we should reduce the speed limit to 35 so all those folks who can't handle 75 won't feel left out?

The "action shooting" sports (as opposed to the "inactive shooting" sports like Free Pistol, Trap, Service Rifle, and such) are SELF TIMED. The shooter only goes as fast as he or is is willing to go. Period. There is no stress but internal stress. And if the internal stress is too much, then the RO is there to take charge of the situation.

The "hot holstering" issue (from reading this thread) seems to be one that the great unwashed, in all their vast numbers, don't have a problem with it...up against a few self-styled cognesti who think it is "too dangerous" for "everyone else but me" to do it. Since Flex asked that we move on, I will not comment (further).

The "race holster" problem is easily fixed...as the nice folks at Cav Arms ALREADY DID. Their rules simply stated, up front, that there would be no race holsters allowed. As they had competitors running 50 (5,000?) yards carrying a 60-pound (2,000 pound?) dummy, and generally dashing about like headless chickens...that was not a bad thing, IMO.

And I didn't notice very much slower times on my admittedly sloth-like draw with my Kydex rig vs. my Limcat, using the same Bedell Open gun.

http://www.dreadnaught-industries.com/imag..._open_kydex.jpg

The worse part...after running the match with the Kydex holster, I decided to keep using it for all 3-Gun matches. Very handy, there behind my hip out of the way on the prone stages, leaving more room for shotgun magazines across my tubby tummy

So, my point (yes, I have one ) is that if the main difference between USPSA multi-gun and Outlaw multi-gun is now down to race holsters and scoring...well, hell, just ban raceholsters and lets get on to the scoring discussions!

Alex

Edited October 21, 2005 by Wakal

[Scout454]

I'm with Platinum on this. I shoot both matches and the scoring is fast, simple and accurate. Either the target has 2 C or better hits or it doesn't. If it doesn't, it has one (or more) misses.

Gents,

A very interesting thread I just had to add my two cents to. I understand that you guys are talking about the major matches, but keep the NA Tactical (Kyle's match) in mind as I opine.

Last year I started a 3 gun club here in Richmond, VA. My model for 3 gun is the NA Tactical and my stage design reflects that. There is another club with similar orientation in MD (coincidentally both of us are former USPSA as well as the clubs) and we have found a real thirst for 3 gun matches (no surprise there). Count me on the "outlaw" side of this discussion. The main issues raised here, I handle this way:

-PF doesn't matter, but nothing less than .223. 12 ga. and 9mm can play.

-We have all the usual classifications (Limited/Open/Tactical/ He-She man.

-Accuracy? We use Time plus for scoring (the D zone doesn't exist, scoring is quick and easy) and course design is used to dial in the difficulty/accuracy level.

-All stages are at least two gun, but mostly all three are used (we take "3 Gun" literally). Transitioning from one hot weapon to another is the norm for course design.

-Pistol is almost always "hot" and can be used to finish a stage if long gun fails.

-No race guns (pistols) or race holsters - we shoot and move and roll on the ground a bit and require strong retention for the holster used.

If there are to be rules, let them be Outlaw rules.

Joe

Edited October 21, 2005 by Scout454

[Scout454]

In our "Outlaw" matches in VA and MD we transition in half or more stages. If the shooter doesn't have a sling or feels unsafe transitioning he/she can make the wepon safe and ground it (muzzle in a safe direction). We also holster hot. There is absolutely no stipulation that you holstar a loaded pistol - or do so as fast as possible. If you don't feel safe, unload and then holster. Or simply take your time. I've been shoving a 1911 back into a holster hot since 1965 and I feel confident doing so even under stress. I don't think that Zak or anyone else expects anyone to do anything that they personally feel is unsafe.

[Cactustactical]

My thoughts on the original questions:

1) USPSA versus the "Outlaws".

My favorite matches have tended to be the outlaw matches in particular Rocky Mtn. 3 gun and North American Tactical. That being said, I would like to see all the 3 gun matches move under the USPSA umbrella. Why? Consistency. We should have one set of equipment rules, one set of procedures and one scoring system. Having 5 sets of rules helps only those with the time and money to deal with them. It does not help 3 gun grow.

[end of quote]

I have to throw this back at you, Why do the rules have to be consistent other than (YOO) the opinion that consistency is needed to grow the sport? Matches are filling up faster and faster the last few years. The sport is growing leaps and bounds with the different rule sets we have now. I do not believe that multiple rule sets are keeping people out of the game now and preventing people from playing.

Participants already tailor their equipment and ammo to the match ( terrain, distance, type of targets, etc). This would not stop if there was one set of rules controlling every major match in the country. The money spent on equipment will continue no matter how many rule sets there are.

Also, one of the big attractions for me personally in 3 gun is the variety of matches that are available to shoot. The MGM Ironman, the SMM3G, the Rocky Mountain and the Cav Arms match have their own very unique rule sets that appeal to some and not to others. Put, those matchs under 1 rule set and the attraction just went out the door. I like the variety, I think it helps attract a larger variety of people than if every match was run under the same rules. Why would I travel all the way to Boise, ID if the Ironman was run under USPSA rules, if it could even be done without dumbing down the match?

Variety is making the sport grow, lets keep it up.

[quote}

2) Time plus scoring vs. Comstock

IMHO time plus scoring as practiced by SMM3G/Rocky Mountain 3 Gun allows for some pretty sloppy shooting. 2 Ds and you're good to go? C'mon.

[end of quote]

I think you are letting the drive to win come into play as it relates to the IMG scoring system. No one says that you can't shoot for A's when playing under the IMG rules. But, would you place as high as you do now? Do you go to IMG matches to win or to shoot A zones? It's a game. If you can win with 2 D's or 1 A consistently, you are playing the game well. If you come in 99 out of 100 with a lot of 2 D zone targets, the scoring system is not your problem.

3) Power factor

I am for the use of power factors. Power should be rewarded. Or is this a game of 9mms, I mean .380s, I mean .32s, I mean .22s, I mean .177s ....

[end of quote]

Again, I have to ask why? If you want to use softer loads, loads that suit your firearm better or even 9mm loads, you run the risk of not knocking over steel or having to double tap steel to make sure if falls. Thats your choice to make or you can use full house rounds and deal with a bit more recoil. Hits count, not how fast the bullet is going and how heavy the bullet it is. This sounds like the old 80's GunSite argument that only a 45 acp could put a man down. That was proven false years ago. Most matches seem to have a lower limit of 9mm anyway, I dont' recall seeing someone use a 380 or a 32 in any match over the last few years. To me, its personal choice, I can use 9mm, get a few more rounds in a magazine, but I have the trade-off of dealing with stubborn steel at times.

[MikeFoley]

Wakal,

"A few self styled cognesti..."

That is a little unfair jab after Flex's request, and I can't sit still without a retort. I will hot reholster, many guys I know like Latewatch I have no problem hot reholstering, but people do get caught up in the game and make mistakes. In a perfect world, Darwin would catch up with them and the rest of us would be grossly unaffected except smaller squads and less traffic. The best case I see for hot reholster is in the recon style matches where a stage is measured in minutes rather than seconds, and the competitors are left to self-service on the semantics of safety. I don't think anyone said it didn't have a place, just that with certain shooters it was not worth the risk. For the realists, wouldn't your pistol be the last gun you would use if you had a rifle?

Observations on common ground as I re-read the thread:

The different rules, scoring, and styles add some challenge, and are actually not an issue. The actual equipment rules pertaining to guns being standardized would probably be welcomed by most. Many would like to see holsters be of a realistic type for carrying a gun in rough conditions. Hot re-holster under the clock has fans and adversaries. Some scoring systems will be used, and some are difficult for the competitor to self score during the match. There are differences in what skills a match will test, and their practical applications if any.

3Gun is not one very complex lady, but a house full of different ladies. If you are a one woman man, great, if you are playing the field, there are many types to choose from and each challenges you in a different way.

[Zak Smith]

or anyone else expects anyone to do anything that they personally feel is unsafe.

Right. It's pretty common at "outlaw" matches for the MD to say something along the lines of-- "We're here to have fun. If you don't feel comfortable going { up the tower / in the boat / in the helicopter / in the HMMV / etc} then don't feel compelled to."

[Cactustactical]

quote from Fomeister:

3Gun is not one very complex lady, but a house full of different ladies. If you are a one woman man, great, if you are playing the field, there are many types to choose from and each challenges you in a different way.

I like this, I wish I could have said it this well.

[Zak Smith]

I have to throw this back at you, Why do the rules have to be consistent other than (YOO) the opinion that consistency is needed to grow the sport? Matches are filling up faster and faster the last few years. The sport is growing leaps and bounds with the different rule sets we have now. I do not believe that multiple rule sets are keeping people out of the game now and preventing people from playing.

I have tried to get a lot of people to shoot 3Gun locally, and successfully cajoled a bunch. The #1 and #2 objections/excuses BY FAR are that they don't think they're good enough (intimidated) or don't have all the equipment. I don't hear anything about rules, reholstering, power factor, or scoring, etc.

Is this in-line with others' experience? If so, then maybe "growing the sport" should concentrate on the actual perceived barriers to new shooters, and not relatively obscure rules?

Edited October 22, 2005 by Zak Smith

[George]

Is this in-line with others' experience?

Yes it is! The intimidation factor is huge and the lack of gear is often used as a secondary cover to prevent admitting that intimidation factor is present.

This is a squarely hit nail Zak!

I don't have any ideas, but this is on the mark IMO.

[chendersby]

A question for all "outlaw" match shooters. If your favorite outlaw match were to go to USPSA multigun rules would you still attend? Same people running it, same type stages just with uspsa scoring and power factors.

[SinistralRifleman]

I have tried to get a lot of people to shoot 3Gun locally, and successfully cajoled a bunch. The #1 and #2 objections/excuses BY FAR are that they don't think they're good enough (intimidated) or don't have all the equipment. I don't hear anything about rules, reholstering, power factor, or scoring, etc. up faster and faster the last few years. The sport is growing leaps and bounds with the different rule

Is this in-line with others' experience? If so, then maybe "growing the sport" should concentrate on the actual perceived barriers to new shooters, and not relatively obscure rules?

This is completely in line with my experience and why we have started putting on General Introduction to Multi-Gun Classes monthly for free to get more new people involved.

[MikeFoley]

I have tried to get a lot of people to shoot 3Gun locally, and successfully cajoled a bunch. The #1 and #2 objections/excuses BY FAR are that they don't think they're good enough (intimidated) or don't have all the equipment. I don't hear anything about rules, reholstering, power factor, or scoring, etc.

Is this in-line with others' experience? If so, then maybe "growing the sport" should concentrate on the actual perceived barriers to new shooters, and not relatively obscure rules?

Yes, lack of equipment and intimidation are the largest barriers around here too. Most of our regulars offer their gear to anyone who wants to use it. I see some show up to "watch" like voyeurs, and some who shoot once, place last, and never return. The ones I like are the guys who show up the next month with all 3 guns and don't miss a match after that.

Edited October 22, 2005 by fomeister

[MKuhn]

I don’t think that there is any way all matches will every fall under one system and why would to want them to, hell there's more than one rule set for USPSA pistol matches.

In fact I am getting ready for a match now and it is IMG rules but next week it’s a USPSA match.

With love

Mell

But i tell them I'm Hung

[Cactustactical]

Is this in-line with others' experience? If so, then maybe "growing the sport" should concentrate on the actual perceived barriers to new shooters, and not relatively obscure rules?

I would have to say yes. We run a monthly multi gun match here at a club with a large pistol USPSA and IDPA match schedule (around 10 per month), there are very few crossover attendees. Around half of our attendees (non members) only come to the club for the MG match. The club members typically say that they don't have the "Right Stuff", so to speak. Rules confusion is not real high on the excuse list. Once we get people to attend, the rule set we use (IMG) don't generate a lot of questions or angst.

[George]

If your favorite outlaw match were to go to USPSA multigun rules would you still attend? Same people running it, same type stages just with uspsa scoring and power factors

The RM3G is my favorite 3Gun match overall. If it used comstock target scoring on paper, or any method that removed the sloppy shooting that IMG style target neutralization brings to the table, it would be the absolute perfect 3gun match IMO. The use of IMG scoring in the stats shack is not the big problem, it's the way points are garnered at the target faces that really bugs me. This is the biggest buggaboo with IMG IMHO. I really like getting more points for putting A's on paper compared to non-centered hits. I also hate to modify the way my paper shooting brain works. One size fits all is good for this type of thing.

The time+ penalty structure is way outa whack IMO also. The penalties expressed as just time in the amounts used are not commensurate with the stage point values and any single mistake is way too costly with IMG penalties as they stand. I like comstock scoring and penalty practices, always have, always will.

The safety and gear rules are already so similar that it would't change anything noticeable if RM3G went to full on USPSA safety and gear rules. The RO's would have to learn a few new phrases, but it's pretty close as it is already.

For me PF usage at outlaw matches wouldn't change anything either as my standard across the board pistol ammo PF's at 172 and none of my rifle ammo PF's factors under 185. In fact, some PF's at 200+. I don't see using PF at an outlaw style match an issue either. I like a pistol and rifle that shoot the same at all matches. No PF changing around for me.

I set up for USPSA rules matches as my base point because everything else seems to be less stringent. I don't think I am alone here either.

--

Regards,

Edited October 22, 2005 by George

[Bob Hostetter]

Just my 2 cents.................

In the late 80's thru the mid to late 90's I shot a lot of 3 gun. I don't shot much 3 gun anymore and if I do its local stuff. My main complaint was and is, the need for different equipment for different matches.

A much smaller complaint was the different scoring systems and power factors. I prefer, in 3 gun, the time plus system over the USPSA type of scoring, but I didn't like the any 2 hits or 1 "A" as is used in some matches. I prefer to be rewarded for shooting well, instead of just fast. I also believe that some type of power factor is needed even if its a floor used for calibating steel, something above 125. Maybe something in the area of 145 or 150. If you want to shoot a 9mm, cool, just make sure it a warm 9mm.......

Finally, an even smaller complaint, 3 gun has become very shotgun oriented, AND it's not the shooting of the shotgun, it's the reloading of the shotgun. The shotgun was never intended to be a hi capacity assualt weapon, and has never been used in that capacity by any LE or military agency I have ever heard of. 20 plus round shotgun only stages just don't make any sense to me. In my mind they are a support weapons system, and should be used in 3 gun competition as they were intended.

Like I said, just my 2 cents worth...................

[MikeFoley]

I agree with Bob that the shotgun reload is over emphasized. Loading one or two rounds is a good technique taught in many shotgun classes, loading another 10-12 is just silly. Even if the shotgun is your primary weapon of choice at home, how many rounds do you need? 9-12 sounds good to me. More than that, and someone should be laying down cover fire.

[latewatch]

Ditto on the shotgun!!! Many of the matches that I've attended were won or lost on the shooters reloading skills on shotgun stages. At DPMS they had a 36 round shotgun stage. Almost everyone was scrambling to borrow ammo carriers so they could carry enough ammo.

As a side note on this, if you want to talk about "practical applications", on duty I have available in my patrol car my duty pistol with 46 rds, a back-up pistol with 10 rds, my shotgun with 10 rds, and my AR-15 with 60 rds. Of course I have additional rds available in my car but, that is what is on my person when I get out on something. And BTW, the shotgun hasn't been out of my car during a call in a long time. If I need a gun, I'll take the AR-15 every time.

I think it would be reasonable that any stage of a 3 gun match should be able to be solved with that round count. No one that I know carries more than about 12-14 rds of shotgun ammo (full shotgun and a side saddle) in the "real world".

Edited October 23, 2005 by latewatch

[Chuck Anderson]

This is a tricky little argument. Regarding round count the same could be said for all the guns. When is the last time you "NEEDED" 46 rounds for you pistol, or 60 rounds for the rifle. Why is it practical to shoot a 32 round pistol course, or 36 round rifle course, but no practical to shoot a 17 round shotgun course. I kind of like the high SG round count stages, and my shotgun loading sucks. I've always looked at 3-gun as challenging three things. Loading with the shotgun, accuracy with the rifle and speed with the pistol. Admittedly each skill is tested with each gun but these have been the primary focus in most matches that I've shot. Although I would love to see a 50yd pistol stage at one of the outlaw matches.

[Cactustactical]

I guess I am one of the rare people who like to use a shotgun. What seems to separate the winners from the non-winners in a 3 gun match is their ability to re-load a shotgun fast. I don't do it particularly well, but I still enjoy the challenge of doing so. High round shotgun stages and those which require slug on demand test my abilities more than a simple "hose-em" 12 shell stage.

Why is a 18-30 round shell stage any less "practical" than a 12 shell stage? Is a 3 gun match supposed to simulate the "real world" (whatever that is) or it supposed to be a fun test of your abilities? If it does not test and extend you, why would you travel 100's of miles and spend a lot of money to attend? It appears to me that the use of the shotgun, especially the re-loading aspect, is not a skill that is practiced often enough and people use that lack of familiarity to prefer low shell count stages.

[George]

I think round counts in shotgun stages are fine in the 14-18 range.

Besides, I'm an open division weenie and if the round counts were typically 10-12, all my TecLoaders would suddenly become the waste of money they really are ;-)

[Bob Hostetter]

regarding the questions about why it is different to have a high round count shotgun stage vs a high round count rifle/pistol stage.............

Reloading 20 rounds into a pistol is a single reload (one mag out, one mag in), reloading 30 rounds into an AR is a single reload (one mag out, one mag in), reloading 10-15 rounds into a shotgun is 10-15 reloads. The primary purpose of the contest is to test shooting skills, not to discover who has the least family and professional obligations, and therefore the most time to practice shotgun reloading. Don't get me wrong, I am very good with speed loaders and loading by hand (having had lots of practice over the years) but I still don't think its what should decide the winner of the match.

Shotgunning has already become gamey enough over the last 10 years. We now show up at a 3 gun match with 3 - 5 different screw in chokes, several different shot shell loads, and a couple of different slug loads.

Also carrying 18-30 rounds of shotgun, especially in a multi gun stage, has become an excuse to buy more equipment, not improve your skills. I'm fat and I still run out of belt space with an AR mag or two, a pistol mag or two, a pistol, and 6 shot shell caddies on my belt. Yes I know you can use the thigh carriers but I must admit, I didn't like them when I had to wear them at work before I retired. Think they are practical? Try getting out of the drivers seat in a patrol car with your seat belt on 10 times in a hurry with one on.........

Yes I know the cool factor is very high and they work great for rope work but until we start rappeling in 3 gun matches I think I will skip using them again. Of course if we starting doing that type of thing again I might start shooting 3 gun again.

Just some thought's from one of the old guys...........

[latewatch]

Bob, that was very well stated and is the point I was trying to make. I like shooting the shotgun and love stages that require the use of slugs and shot. Those stages really tests the shooters ability to think and solve a problem. I just think that a lot of the bigger matches are becoming too shotgun heavy. A good 10-16 round course will test everything that needs to be tested with the shotgun.

And Lawman, fortunately I've never needed my 46 rds of pistol ammo on the street but, I'm sure if you asked some of the officers involved in the North Hollywood Incident, they'd have a different point of view.

And you can call me sick but, I used to always love the 50 yard standards that used to be a part of almost every major match.

Just my .02 cents. Well actually I'm probably up to about .06 to .08 cents by now!!

Edited October 24, 2005 by latewatch