Steel matches - balance between challenging and too difficult

[zzt]

16 minutes ago, Hoops said:

offer comments that support official Steel Challenge over Outlaw matches.

 

If a club is USPSA/SCSA sanctioned, they will shoot mainly SCSA classifiers.  Some mix and match.  One club I shoot at only has six bays available, and only four can support an SCSA classifier.  So the run four standard and two outlaw.  My home club is not affiliated with any sanctioning body, so all our matches are outlaw.  Even if I put in a real SCSA stage, it was still outlaw.

[elguapo]

2 hours ago, Hoops said:

 

Short answer is yes.  Multiple gun divisions similar to USPSA.  But that’s about the extent of where the two games are similar.

 

Steel matches or Outlaw matches are not Steel Challenge but are all steel and most of these matches follow similar gun divisions that are under USPSA.  Usually OL rules are dictated by the MD.

 

For this topic USPSA/IPSC is not a factor or considered.  Steel only and when is too much steel over the line and no longer fun is my question.

 

You brought up reloading as something that discourages newer shooters.  You said if you're reloading then you're behind, made worse by larger stages where a new shooter would have to do multiple reloads.

 

Which led to my question about equipment divisions and competing like with like.  The comparison to USPSA was for my benefit since I haven't shot any steel matches be they SCSA or outlaw.

 

So evidently reloading does not put someone at a disadvantage unless they're paying attention to shooters in divisions other than his own?  That's not a problem with the stage or the match.

 

Anyhow, I don't particularly care if a stage is long or short.  Or if I can get through it without reloading or needing to do 3 - 4 reloads.

 

I do care if a match drags on for more than 3 - 4 hours.  So if I had to sit through six hours of resetting steel to shoot a few minutes, guaranteed I won't be back.

[Hoops]

2 hours ago, elguapo said:

 

You brought up reloading as something that discourages newer shooters.  You said if you're reloading then you're behind, made worse by larger stages where a new shooter would have to do multiple reloads.

 

Which led to my question about equipment divisions and competing like with like.  The comparison to USPSA was for my benefit since I haven't shot any steel matches be they SCSA or outlaw.

 

So evidently reloading does not put someone at a disadvantage unless they're paying attention to shooters in divisions other than his own?  That's not a problem with the stage or the match.

 

Anyhow, I don't particularly care if a stage is long or short.  Or if I can get through it without reloading or needing to do 3 - 4 reloads.

 

I do care if a match drags on for more than 3 - 4 hours.  So if I had to sit through six hours of resetting steel to shoot a few minutes, guaranteed I won't be back.

leguapo, the topic of this post is Steel Matches - balance between challenging and too difficult.  Steel matches and only steel matches was the focus.  My intent was to solicit comments from shooters who regularly shoot steel matches and have them share their experiences at their local steel matches.  

 

 Not all ranges can physically support official Steel Challenge stages which are all classifiers (I wish they could).  Because many people enjoy shooting steel, the MD’s at the restricted ranges will design their own steel stages....hence the term Outlaw or just Steel Match.  Our range hosts OL/Steel Matches.  Over time we have seen targets per stage increase to as many as 40+ in a single stage.  Similar to other responses to this post, we too have seen a decline in participation.  Did we inadvertently cross over to matches with too much steel that created unintended consequences?  Based on the responses and my own opinion, I am of the conclusion that we did.  

 

Next step is take your good input and design stages that are fun, fast and inviting for all skill levels and get back to the original principles of shooting a fast, clean steel match.  BUT.........on the weekends where there are official Steel Matches within 65 to 180 miles.....we continue to drive to them to shoot official classifiers.  Steel junkies we are.

 

Thanks to all that participated in this post.  It was good to read first hand experiences.   

[Hoops]

3 hours ago, elguapo said:

 

You brought up reloading as something that discourages newer shooters.  You said if you're reloading then you're behind, made worse by larger stages where a new shooter would have to do multiple reloads.

 

Which led to my question about equipment divisions and competing like with like.  The comparison to USPSA was for my benefit since I haven't shot any steel matches be they SCSA or outlaw.

 

So evidently reloading does not put someone at a disadvantage unless they're paying attention to shooters in divisions other than his own?  That's not a problem with the stage or the match.

 

Anyhow, I don't particularly care if a stage is long or short.  Or if I can get through it without reloading or needing to do 3 - 4 reloads.

 

I do care if a match drags on for more than 3 - 4 hours.  So if I had to sit through six hours of resetting steel to shoot a few minutes, guaranteed I won't be back.

Sorry, I misspelled you’re screen name.  Should have typed elguapo.

[EarlKeese]

I've watched most of P. Kelly's box to match YT videos. At those matches, he shoots a lot of stages that are different but have a similar style to SCSA stages. If I was going to shoot outlaw matches or stages, this is what I'd be looking for.

Edited November 6, 2019 by EarlKeese

[gerritm]

We had a club run a monthly all knockdown outlaw steel match similar to USPSA type stages. All pistol/pcc/shotgun divisions, even .22, called those hits. It was a blast. Would get 40 plus shooters. Last about 3 hours. Stages were roughly same amount of targets as a typical USPSA stage with 5 stages. From short to long course of fire. Movement was the same. Not much standing still to shoot other than a few shooting boxes.

 

Most of us had magnets to pickup steel & shotgun hulls to save our backs.

 

Was our favorite match. Unfortunately the sponsor who had the steel left the range & it stopped. Would shoot another in a heartbeat.

 

We do shoot local SC matches, also.

 

gerritm

[Hoops]

4 hours ago, gerritm said:

We had a club run a monthly all knockdown outlaw steel match similar to USPSA type stages. All pistol/pcc/shotgun divisions, even .22, called those hits. It was a blast. Would get 40 plus shooters. Last about 3 hours. Stages were roughly same amount of targets as a typical USPSA stage with 5 stages. From short to long course of fire. Movement was the same. Not much standing still to shoot other than a few shooting boxes.

 

Most of us had magnets to pickup steel & shotgun hulls to save our backs.

 

Was our favorite match. Unfortunately the sponsor who had the steel left the range & it stopped. Would shoot another in a heartbeat.

 

We do shoot local SC matches, also.

 

gerritm

Don’t you just hate it when someone decides leave and takes all their own stuff .  Sounds like a fun match you had.

 

You noted that you also shoot local SCSA matches.  Did most of the folks who shot the outlaw stages you outlined go over to the SCSA matches after your sponsor took the steel?

 

 

[gerritm]

1 hour ago, Hoops said:

Don’t you just hate it when someone decides leave and takes all their own stuff .  Sounds like a fun match you had.

 

You noted that you also shoot local SCSA matches.  Did most of the folks who shot the outlaw stages you outlined go over to the SCSA matches after your sponsor took the steel?

 

 

A few carried over to the local SC matches. The club that ran it does a SC match and has between 20 & 30 shooters. But they treat it more as a fun match. Not real tight on stage setup & distances.Still fun.

 

Seems to us. We shoot a lot including USPSA, SC, 3-gun, RCSA, & UML that steel challenge is perceived as a match for beginners. And it is a good start to learn proper gun handling & range commands. Many of the shooters we encounter at the 4 different SC matches are less experienced or older not wanting to run, but still shoot.  Still it is fun. 

 

The outlaw falling steel match was the best. Nothing like the ring of steel, instant gratification when they fall. The owners of the steel are moving their UML 3-gun match to another range & hope they run the falling steel match eventually again.

 

gerritm

 

 

Edited November 6, 2019 by gerritm
Add info

[Sigarmsp226]

Hoops - I am going to share with you A little different perspective based on my short experience of running a monthly match with only Two bays - yep two bays.... Each month I select four or five courses of fire that will be shot. The weekend before our monthly match I go to the range and pre-mark with various colored spray paint each  course so when it comes time to move the targets it can be done by anyone....The day before the match I go and set up one course in each bay so there is no set up required the morning of the shoot...Now all the steel, bases,uprights, and hangers are mine and all are 3/8” AR500...I use four different steels 8” round, 10” round, 12” round, and 18”x24” rectangle.
 

All courses are five targets with the stop plate identified by the red post....We average 25-40 shooters each month and usually are finished 3 hrs after we start....We shoot 5 cycles per stage and since we only have two bays we always have two squads....The squads switch to the opposite bay after they shoot the first bay....After both squads have shot both courses the firing line is cleared and everyone heads down range to move the bases, uprights, hangers, and specific plates to the pre-painted matching color stakes already marked..Others follow behind with a coat of paint and within 5 minutes  we are shooting again....
 

We follow the same process but after each shooter has shot the four different courses everyone goes down range again BUT this time both bays are set up with the exact same “speed shoot course”....This is the final stage everyone will shoot and it, like all the other stages contains five targets total...The main difference is these five targets are usually fairly close together allowing some really really fast times which is always a fun way to end the day.....

 

We post times as each squad finishes each course on a huge white board that is mounted on a wall just behind the shooting lines where people get to see their scores while  they are reloading their mags.....When we are done I usually have 5-6 folks that will help me load all of my equipment and we are done for the month....I always send out an email to all participants (I get each shooters email when they sign up to shoot) two weeks in advance of the next scheduled shoot as a reminder and we always shoot on the fourth Saturday of each month.....I have been running this shoot with the help from the range owner for the last 10 months (range owner gets all of the entry fees to pay for his range insurance and porta-jon which is fine by me because I just love the opportunity to run the match and watch everyone shoot) and he and his son always help run the match....Cost $10.00 per gun.....

 

The Pre-planning work I do makes our shoots fun and fairly fast.... So far the smallest crowd we have had was 15 shooters but it was also a nasty weather day....Hope this helps you in your quest....Mark

 

Oh - almost forgot to mention - every shooter is allowed one mulligan per course shoot if it is needed....Mulligans can only be used once per course and it only applies if you have a weapon malfunction or you run out of ammo when shooting a string....This makes it a lot of fun because people get that second chance...We also drop the highest time and score the four best....No movement required in our stages and if you choose to stat at low ready ( do not have a holster or do not feel comfortable drawing) we simply add one second to each strings time....Mark

Edited November 7, 2019 by Sigarmsp226

[Hoops]

1 hour ago, Sigarmsp226 said:

Hoops - I am going to share with you A little different perspective based on my short experience of running a monthly match with only Two bays - yep two bays.... Each month I select four or five courses of fire that will be shot. The weekend before our monthly match I go to the range and pre-mark with various colored spray paint each  course so when it comes time to move the targets it can be done by anyone....The day before the match I go and set up one course in each bay so there is no set up required the morning of the shoot...Now all the steel, bases,uprights, and hangers are mine and all are 3/8” AR500...I use four different steels 8” round, 10” round, 12” round, and 18”x24” rectangle.
 

All courses are five targets with the stop plate identified by the red post....We average 25-40 shooters each month and usually are finished 3 hrs after we start....We shoot 5 cycles per stage and since we only have two bays we always have two squads....The squads switch to the opposite bay after they shoot the first bay....After both squads have shot both courses the firing line is cleared and everyone heads down range to move the bases, uprights, hangers, and specific plates to the pre-painted matching color stakes already marked..Others follow behind with a coat of paint and within 5 minutes  we are shooting again....
 

We follow the same process but after each shooter has shot the four different courses everyone goes down range again BUT this time both bays are set up with the exact same “speed shoot course”....This is the final stage everyone will shoot and it, like all the other stages contains five targets total...The main difference is these five targets are usually fairly close together allowing some really really fast times which is always a fun way to end the day.....

 

We post times as each squad finishes each course on a huge white board that is mounted on a wall just behind the shooting lines where people get to see their scores while  they are reloading their mags.....When we are done I usually have 5-6 folks that will help me load all of my equipment and we are done for the month....I always send out an email to all participants (I get each shooters email when they sign up to shoot) two weeks in advance of the next scheduled shoot as a reminder and we always shoot on the fourth Saturday of each month.....I have been running this shoot with the help from the range owner for the last 10 months (range owner gets all of the entry fees to pay for his range insurance and porta-jon which is fine by me because I just love the opportunity to run the match and watch everyone shoot) and he and his son always help run the match....Cost $10.00 per gun.....

 

The Pre-planning work I do makes our shoots fun and fairly fast.... So far the smallest crowd we have had was 15 shooters but it was also a nasty weather day....Hope this helps you in your quest....Mark

 

Oh - almost forgot to mention - every shooter is allowed one mulligan per course shoot if it is needed....Mulligans can only be used once per course and it only applies if you have a weapon malfunction or you run out of ammo when shooting a string....This makes it a lot of fun because people get that second chance...We also drop the highest time and score the four best....No movement required in our stages and if you choose to stat at low ready ( do not have a holster or do not feel comfortable drawing) we simply add one second to each strings time....Mark

Mark, that is pure genius.  Most of us would not even think once about holding matches at a two bay range yet you were creative enough to figure out a system to do it.  Awesome.   I am guilty of complaining that our range only giving us 5 bays instead of 6.......don’t think I will complain anymore.

 

Thank you for the detailed overview.  It gave me a number of ideas and I appreciate you taking the time to write it down.  Shooting steel may not be run-and-gun but it takes a lot of practice and equipment investment to hit these targets under 1/2 second each including the wide transitions.  For those not fortunate enough to have much practice time or afford to trick out their guns, steel matches still provides the challenge and fun that most people want from a match.  Setting up stages with the effort you described takes a keen eye for a good mixture of difficulty, fun and raw speed.  I sensed as the MD you also wanted your shooters to enjoy the match.  This thought was the essence of me posting this topic in the first place......

 

[HalRex]

Good discussion Hoop. I'm thinking that something similar to Rimfire Challenge (but available to centerfire pistol calibers too) would be generally what you're looking for.

Here's a link to their rulebook: https://www.rimfirechallenge.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/2019-RCSA-Rule-Book_Final_2019.1-1.pdf

[Hi-Power Jack]

My local club offers each type of steel shoots alternative months -

Action Steel one month (can have 15 - 20 pieces of steel, and some movement)

and the next month, back to Steel Challenge.

 

Everybody is happy this way.      

[Hoops]

1 hour ago, HalRex said:

Good discussion Hoop. I'm thinking that something similar to Rimfire Challenge (but available to centerfire pistol calibers too) would be generally what you're looking for.

Here's a link to their rulebook: https://www.rimfirechallenge.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/2019-RCSA-Rule-Book_Final_2019.1-1.pdf

HalRex.  Thank you for the link.  There are two statements within the RFC rules that I believe speaks to the the topic of this post regarding challenging vs too difficult.  Section 11. Target/Course Design begins with "General Principle: 90% of the people should be able to hit 90% of the targets 90% of the time".  Section 11.11.2 " Courses of fire should not be "mind games" or designed to trick participants into making mistakes or being unsafe".  

 

Thanks