How are you measuring powder for load workup?

[GregJ]

What is everyone using to get accurate powder drops when working up a new load?

 

Background: I am in the process of cutting over to BB 125 bullets and Power Pistol powder (9Minor).  I load on an AB driven Dillon 1050, and use an RCBS Chargemaster 1500 (with straw mod),  primarily to weigh/verify powder drops from the Dillon powder measure. I calibrate the CM before each use, bench is solid, and in basement.  

 

To work up a new load,  I would manually cycle the press until the case leaves the power drop, I would pull the case, empty the powder back into the jug, then place the primed and expanded case on the loading tray.  After accumulating a number of cases, I would then set the desired charge weight on the CM, auto dispense, and empty the powder into the cases.  Then place each case back into the press, under the bullet drop and cycle the press through (bullet drop, seat, crmp).  

 

However, I have noticed my CM powder drops have not been as accurate as I had believed them to be.  I noticed in this latest load workup, that rounds with charges dropped via the CM have had SD in the double digits and PF much lower than expected.  The same charge weight from the press during a load run, the SD was 4-5 and avg PF was more realistic.  On the CM, I have tried default config settings, as well as adjusted the settings, and have gone back to default.

 

Testing further, from the CM I had dispensed 10 charges of 3.8gr of Sport Pistol, and weighed the total, and they may come out +- .5 or more (e.g. 37.6-37.7 to 38.4).  I suppose this may be within acceptable limits for the CM, but it is apparently playing hell with getting consistent chrono results.  For grins, I have also set the auto dispense load to be 3.6gr, and used the trickle function, as well as manually tricked up to 3.8, with similar results.  The weight of the 10 charges from the CM were verified with my 505 beam scale.

 

Using the scale by itself seems to be accurate, if I drop 10 charges from the press and weigh them on the CM, the weight seems to be accurate, as I have double checked it with the 505 beam scale. It only seems to be inaccurate if I auto dispense powder.  I have even double checked each charge auto dispensed on the CM by swishing the powder around and placing back on the scale.  The charge weighed correctly, but when I checked all 10, they were either low or high.

 

Adjusting the powder drop on the press is a real PITA, and is very time intensive, which is why the CM is very helpful, but it is proving to be less than reliable.  I know RCBS is coming out with their Matchmaster auto dispenser next month, so I suspect they will be less than enthusiastic to help.  

 

I see a manual powder drop in my future used solely for this purpose.    

 

[Hi-Power Jack]

Are you using the same headstamp brass ?

 

What are you doing with these rounds ?   Sounds like you're going for

greater accuracy than most people shooting action sports.

 

What kind of accuracy are you getting at 25 yards ?

[Beef15]

I either drop from my standalone powder measure and load on the single stage or use the one on my press depending on mood. With a little experience it's not hard to dial in a couple tenths different load. Weigh on a Redding balance/scale.

 

[GregJ]

20 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

Are you using the same headstamp brass ?

 

What are you doing with these rounds ?   Sounds like you're going for

greater accuracy than most people shooting action sports.

 

What kind of accuracy are you getting at 25 yards ?

 

 

Mixed headstamps.

 

Uh, USPSA, 9Minor.  No, just trying to get consistent chrono results.  When I chrono'ed rounds loaded from the CM they were way lower in both SD and PF from supposedly same chage weight dropped from the press.

[GregJ]

12 minutes ago, Beef15 said:

I either drop from my standalone powder measure and load on the single stage or use the one on my press depending on mood. With a little experience it's not hard to dial in a couple tenths different load. Weigh on a Redding balance/scale.

 

Yeah, that was my next direction.  I have a Hornady SS press I use mostly for pulling rounds apart.  I will probably look at an RCBS manual powder drop.

[m700]

I have the chargemaster and use it for working up rifle loads and loading all non 223 rifle  But with pistol rounds I would use 10 throws from the dillon powder measure and get the average for desired load load up 50 and hit the range. If you are loading for minor than work up a load that will shoot 50 rounds over the minimum so the light charges will meet the minimum. Ultimately you will be at the mercy of the powder measure on the press, otherwise owning the 1050 isn't worth it if you are going to manually drop each charge.

[Hi-Power Jack]

2 hours ago, m700 said:

  you will be at the mercy of the powder measure, otherwise the 1050 isn't worth it if you are going to manually drop each charge.

 

  ^^^^    We don't need that type of precision for shooting USPSA with 9mm Minor loads.  Your powder measure is your friend.     

[GregJ]

9 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

^^^^    We don't need that type of precision for shooting USPSA with 9mm Minor loads. 

 

You missed an important part of my original post.  Using loads from the CM resulted in a big difference in SD and PF versus tweaking loads from my Dillon press.  And yes, I am well aware of the precision requirements for this sport, being a certified RO for the last 3 years, and have actively participated in it for over 10. 

 

Edited October 21, 2019 by GregJ

[m700]

The CM is sensitive to fluorescent lighting.  I changed my 2 nearest lights to LED and was met with better accuracy in drops.

[GregJ]

2 hours ago, m700 said:

The CM is sensitive to fluorescent lighting.  I changed my 2 nearest lights to LED and was met with better accuracy in drops.

 

Thanks, will give this a shot.  

[m700]

 
Thanks, will give this a shot.  

It's the ballast not the bulb

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[GregJ]

13 hours ago, m700 said:

It's the ballast not the bulb

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Ah yes, I recall that now.  I dont have any of ballast style lights in the basement.  Just recessed flood lights in the ceiling, and two desk top style lamps on the bench. 

I think my CM is beyond hope.  The scale when used by itself continues to prove to be accurate, but when used in conjunction with the powder dispenser, that is when things go south.   I will try and call RCBS and see if they have any suggestions.  tks. 

[Yondering]

Seems like you've answered your own question - the CM is not accurate, just use the Dillon powder measure. It shouldn't be difficult to use; I'm not sure what your trouble is with it? 

[m700]

The CM should be more accurate than the measure and I think that was the point OP was making. I choose to setting my measure using 10 drops ,dump them all on scale and divide by 10. Even when working up a new(non Major) load. You should no roughly where you want to be. Load 50 of that, 50 with a little more, and 50 with a little less. Pack the chrony head to the range. A little hot or cold and you can still practice with it. You shouldn't need to make a full ladder box.

 

But for OP's CM I would still want it fixed for rifle

[AHI]

OP where is your phone?    A smart (ass) phone (the worst) old style cell or even land line cordless will interfere with digital scales.

 

[Yondering]

4 hours ago, m700 said:

The CM should be more accurate than the measure and I think that was the point OP was making.

 

"Should be" vs "is not". It clearly isn't working right, and those don't have a great reputation for this anyway. A lot of guys seem to get frustrated with them even for rifle use. 

 

The Dillon measure is pretty accurate for most pistol powders, and since it's throwing a fixed volume, it's easy to see why it can be more accurate than a CM which is trying to work up to the right charge every time. If the CM is out of calibration for that powder, forget it. 

 

Also, it is "more accurate" to use the powder measure and settings you'll actually load with, rather than a different dispenser that may throw differently. The whole process in the OP sounds like a lot of extra work and no benefit compared to the way most of us do it, IMO. Using the Dillon powder dispenser should not be "a real PITA"; I think it'd be more helpful to figure that part out. 

[GregJ]

18 hours ago, Yondering said:

Using the Dillon powder dispenser should not be "a real PITA"; I think it'd be more helpful to figure that part out. 

 

My 1050 is automated with an Ammo Bot and a shortened handle.  This means manually cycling it is a PITA due to the handle as well as working against the resistance of the motor.  Getting the powder measure to drop the desired amount means cycling it 50-100 times.  A normal 1050 this would not be an issue. 

[m700]

GregJ, you dont have to cycle the press to get measure to drop, just disconnect the failsafe rod and cycle the measure with a case pushed up against the funnel dump this one in the measure, then repeat 10 times onto the scale.

[GregJ]

9 minutes ago, m700 said:

GregJ, you dont have to cycle the press to get measure to drop, just disconnect the failsafe rod and cycle the measure with a case pushed up against the funnel dump this one in the measure, then repeat 10 times onto the scale.

 

  Duh.   Thanks. 

 

[Yondering]

8 hours ago, GregJ said:

 

My 1050 is automated with an Ammo Bot and a shortened handle.  This means manually cycling it is a PITA due to the handle as well as working against the resistance of the motor.  Getting the powder measure to drop the desired amount means cycling it 50-100 times.  A normal 1050 this would not be an issue. 

 

What m700 said, and also you should be able to home in on a powder charge in a lot less than 50-100 drops. You don't have to measure every adjustment 10+ times, only do that when you think you've got it.

 

It helps a lot to mark the adjustment bolt on one flat if you're not using some sort of marked cap, and learn how the adjustments work with your powder. 

For example - on mine I have one flat marked to indicate 3.4gr of Clays (when that flat is at the top). One full revolution lower puts it at 2.8gr, and one higher puts it at 4.0gr. Knowing that, it's pretty easy to dial in whatever charge weight I want (by counting flats or number of turns) in that range, and then verify with the scale. Adjusting from 3.4 gr to 2.5gr for example is simply 1.5 turns, or one turn plus 3 more flats, and then verifying the thrown charges on the scale. If it's way off from where I thought, that's obvious from the first throw, don't need 10 of them. 

 

If I want to go back to that 3.4gr charge, I can do that by going the correct number of turns back and stopping the mark. Don't even need to weight more than one or maybe two charges to know if it's right, because the mark tells me it's either correct or a full turn (or two) off. 

 

One clarification - I discard the first throw after any powder measure adjustment in the Dillon. Sometimes it's right on but sometimes it's not. I start weighing with the second throw. 

Edited October 24, 2019 by Yondering

[GregJ]

@m700 and @Yondering  Great info and suggestions.  It is crazy sometimes no matter how long you have done something, like reloading, then you look at something a little different and want to slap yourself for not thinking of that before!!  Forest and trees kind of thing I guess.  I've had my AB driven 1050 for 2 years, and this is just the second load workup I have had to do on it.  But lesson well learned. 

 

I took a 308 case and cut the shoulder off, deprimed it and filled the flash hole and primer pocket with glue, as this make a perfect powder holder.  It holds 5 charges of 3.8gr very easily, so I only have to fill it twice to get 10 drops to weigh.  I also took a 2" long screw to hold the powder arm and the lock out together, as the screw provides a handle of sort (screw only to be used for this purpose).

 

I have the powder measure knobs from Range Panda, and they work quite well.  While no real references, I do have a pretty good feel for how much to adjust to get into the ball park.

 

Thanks again!! 

[m700]

I here you. I do it often.  I had some issues years back with the primer bar on my 550 and decided to switch to hand priming. 8 years later I asked myself why am I doing this. So I dug out the primer system and added the roller bearing to it and was back in business and realized how much time I wasted over the years.

[Blurryvisions]

the quality of light actually affect the powder drop?  that would drive me bonkers haha.  interesting.  i love the process of reloading, i think ill snatch up some MG 124JHP's for some winter reloading 9mm minor for the win : )    3.5gr of vita 310 gets me 135pf out of a 6 inch tribrid.  bets gun i have ever owned

[perttime]

Good thing I'm still using mechanical Dillon scales....

 

 

[m700]

the quality of light actually affect the powder drop?  that would drive me bonkers haha.  interesting.  i love the process of reloading, i think ill snatch up some MG 124JHP's for some winter reloading 9mm minor for the win : )    3.5gr of vita 310 gets me 135pf out of a 6 inch tribrid.  bets gun i have ever owned

Not the quality, it's the ballast in the fluorescent lights puts something out that messes with it

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