What Rule Allows A Shooter to stop him/herself?

[carinab]

I tried searching the file but probably used poor wording. So help me out...what rule addresses this?

Perhaps this should be under "match screw-ups" but at last weekend's match, we had to carry a dummy down range. The big he-men in my squad could easily drape said dummy over a forearm and still shoot freestyle. Despite my weightlifting activites, I didn't find this possible. I also didn't want to have to engage the targets strong hand only. So after picking up the dummy, I rolled him onto my shoulder. Unfortunately, the doofus grabbed the chain attached to my earplug and >pop< out it came. I had this hesitation as I came to the first target. Could I stop myself? I wasn't sure. So I nuzzled the dummy as to cover up my ear and engaged the target. It was still rather loud. Since I figured the RO was watching my gun and not the ear plug dangling down my back, after I set the dummy down, I took my index finger, stuffed it in my ear, and finished up the last six targets strong handed. After the last shot fired, I asked the RO why he didn't stop me. I figured that a finger in the ear with my elbow out in outer space was a clue I'd lost my hearing protection. He told me he saw it come out but thought I would stop myself.

So, what's the rule on this. I've heard I could have stopped but given that I didn't, should the RO have stopped me? If so, would that have been grounds for a reshoot?

[Loves2Shoot]

Spank the RO, he should have stopped you. There is no rule allowing you to stop yourself that I am aware of, if you stop yourself you may or may not get screwed,

[BritinUSA]

5.4.4

A competitor who inadvertently loses eye or ear protection during a course of fire, or commences a course of fire without them, is entitled to stop, point their firearm in a safe direction and indicate the problem to the Range Official, in which case the provisions of the previous rule will apply.

The previous rule (5.4.3) indicates a reshoot is necessary

[carinab]

So I'm allowed to stop but if I don't, is the RO supposed to stop me?

[BritinUSA]

5.4.3 States that the RO must stop you if he notices the loss or lack of eye/ear protection.

But ultimately RO's are fallable, we as shooters however should ensure that our safety is paramount. IMHO you should not wait for an RO to stop you if your safety is at risk, you could and should have stopped yourself.

The RO should of course be spanked excessively next time you see him/her...

[carinab]

Well the sticky bit is, is it grounds for a reshoot? The RO told me he saw that I didn't have hearing protection but he didn't stop me. And yeah, I know I should have stopped score be damned but it's this tenacity (some called it stupidity) thing I have going....

[Nik Habicht]

It's grounds for a re-shoot if it happened by accident. That would be my call ---- as RO, or MD. (Yeah ---- I know it's the RM's job to make the call, but at the my club I get to appoint the RM....) The only risk to stopping yourself is that the RO might want to argue that it was deliberate......

On the other hand, do you want to be able to hear your future grandkids?

[BritinUSA]

In my opinion:

If you had not signed your score sheet then you could/should have applied for a reshoot. I am not sure if you would have gotten it or not.

If the RO saw your ear protection dislodged then you should get the reshoot, because he should have stopped you.

If he did not see it, then you should have stopped yourself, it that situation it may be harder to get a reshoot for a rule issue that the RO did not see...

[Jasonub]

Thats great! if i have a bad stage ill rip out my hearing protection!!

Seriously, you shoud have asked for a reshoot.

before this thread i thought that the only time we shooters are allowed to stop ourselves if we get shot by our own gun

[Georg Moskopp]

Thats great! if i have a bad stage ill rip out my hearing protection!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Before you try that, I would recommend you take a closer look to rule 10.6.3:

10.6.3 A competitor who is deemed by a Range Officer to have intentionally removed or caused the loss of eye or ear protection in order to gain a competitive advantage will be disqualified for unsportsmanlike conduct.

Georg

[Jasonub]

Thats great! if i have a bad stage ill rip out my hearing protection!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Before you try that, I would recommend you take a closer look to rule 10.6.3:

10.6.3 A competitor who is deemed by a Range Officer to have intentionally removed or caused the loss of eye or ear protection in order to gain a competitive advantage will be disqualified for unsportsmanlike conduct.

Georg

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

whoops, missed that one.

btw i never did read the rulebook

most of the time its common sense

now what if i say that my zippers open and my thing may dance around? maybe i can get a reshoot?

[BDH]

Carina, you absolutely had the right to stop yourself and to reshoot the stage under the rules quoted by BritinUSA. FYI, this is an addition to the Green Rulebook as in the past the RO was allowed to stop you if he/she saw that you lost hearing protection, but there was not a specific rule that allowed the competitor to stop themselves. This is a good addition to the rulebook (although it does create a potential issue with the very small number of competitors that might be tanking a stage, and try to use this as an out).

I had one of these on my stage at the 3 Gun Nationals a couple of years back. Shotgun stage, and shooter loses his weak side ear plug. Since the RO was on the strong side, he didn't have a chance to see it fall out. The shooter completed the stage but was very upset that the RO did not stop him. I looked up the rule (Red Rulebook), and saw that the RO 'had' to stop him if he saw that the competitor lost hearing protection, so I suggested that what he could have done was stop, point to his ear without the plug, and then we would have had to reshoot him. I know, that's a risky move to stop yourself (and the competitor in question was a GM, so he pushed on). I'm just glad that we have a rule to solve this little dilemma going forward...

[Georg Moskopp]

now what if i say that my zippers open and my thing may dance around? maybe i can get a reshoot?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, but you have to do two other things:

- clean the range in case anybody had to throw out

- buy the range crew a drink

Georg

[RIIID]

I found out about the rule at this years Nationals and many on the squad didn't know you could stop yourself. The key to that rule is you have to tell the RO before the end of the of the run. Once you holster the gun and the RO declares the range is clear, you can't ask for a reshoot.

Rich

[bberkley]

I found out about the rule at this years Nationals and many on the squad didn't know you could stop yourself. The key to that rule is you have to tell the RO before the end of the of the run. Once you holster the gun and the RO declares the range is clear, you can't ask for a reshoot.

Rich

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You don't have to finish the COF, you have the right to stop yourself and get a reshoot if you have lost your eye or ear protection in any circumstance under 5.4.4. The RO has to determine if you purposely removed it, which subjects you to US5.4.5 and 10.6.3

We just covered this in detail at our Level 1 seminar this weekend with Troy.

[mactiger]

Good answer, Brian(s) and Nik (and Paul).

Carina, you are entitled to stop yourself if your earplug comes out, or you lose your glasses. The RO should have stopped you in this instance; unfortunately, he didn't. In either case, a reshoot is mandatory, after you have restored your protective equipment. The correct rules are 5.4.3 through US 5.4.5. Intentional removal of eye or hearing protection is grounds for an unsportsmanlike DQ, but accidental loss results in a reshoot. If you'd asked for a reshoot after you finished, it seems that would be a reasonable request, since you weren't stopped during the COF. There is no rule that covers a post COF request, either for or against, BTW. Best practice is to stop when this happens--even though you are hardhe...er, tenacious.

Troy

[Flexmoney]

I wanted to bump this thread to the top for a refresher (and I am going to edit the title a bit).

5.4.3 If a Range Official notices that a competitor has lost or displaced their eye or ear protection during a course of fire, or has commenced a course of fire without them, the Range Official must immediately stop the competitor who will be required to reshoot the course of fire after the protective devices have been restored.

5.4.4 A competitor who inadvertently loses eye or ear protection during a course of fire, or commences a course of fire without them, is entitled to stop, point their handgun in a safe direction and indicate the problem to the Range Official, in which case the provisions of the previous rule will apply.

[Gary Stevens]

There is one small fly in the ointment from the RO standpoint. If the shooter is double plugged, and they accidently lose their main ear protection they are still wearing ear protection. Sometimes it is hard to tell, but you can't go wrong with going on the side of safety regardless.

[lcs]

I wanted to bump this thread to the top for a refresher (and I am going to edit the title a bit).

5.4.3 If a Range Official notices that a competitor has lost or displaced their eye or ear protection during a course of fire, or has commenced a course of fire without them, the Range Official must immediately stop the competitor who will be required to reshoot the course of fire after the protective devices have been restored.

5.4.4 A competitor who inadvertently loses eye or ear protection during a course of fire, or commences a course of fire without them, is entitled to stop, point their handgun in a safe direction and indicate the problem to the Range Official, in which case the provisions of the previous rule will apply.

Interesting you should bring this up.

I have ALWAYS used two sets of ear protection. Molded in the ear AND outside ear muffs. I have hearing loss and shoot open.

I have the habit of lifting the right ear muff up on top of my head until I hear LAMR. Well at A8 on the stage with the hands on the wall start, I forgot to drop my right ear muff in place. Beeeep, fire four shots and realize my ear muff is up. I turn for the other two targets and with my left hand I reach across my face and pull the muff in place. Lost time for sure.

The RO was standing to my right side at the start and could not have missed my big ole ear muff cocked way up on my head and if he was really watching me shoot he could not have missed me reach up and correct my ear protection. I asked the RO, "Did you see me pull my ear protection down?", he just looked at me with a blank stair. On I went.

Two things here cross my mind with your post, (1) With an obvious ear muff cocked way up on my head, the RO should not have started me; (2) Since I noticed it after the start signal , I should have stopped and got a reshoot?

By the above definition two people made mistakes, right or wrong?

[lcs]

There is one small fly in the ointment from the RO standpoint. If the shooter is double plugged, and they accidently lose their main ear protection they are still wearing ear protection. Sometimes it is hard to tell, but you can't go wrong with going on the side of safety regardless.

Gary,

See my post below yours please. I am always "double plugged". I think, you are saying "double plugged" or not. The rules apply?

[Flexmoney]

As an RO...we aren't going to always catch that. If/when we do, we need to stop the shooter and order up the reshoot.

As a shooter...it's on me to know this particular rule. I can't count on the RO to catch it, with all the other stuff going on.

As for the plugs + muffs. Hmmm...my thinking is that, if the shooter went to the trouble to wear both, that both count as part of their ear protection.

The sticky points here are that the RO never wants to stop a run unless he/she is 105% sure that something has gone funky. The shooter is the same...we are conditioned to "never stop".

[JThompson]

Good answer, Brian(s) and Nik (and Paul).

Carina, you are entitled to stop yourself if your earplug comes out, or you lose your glasses. The RO should have stopped you in this instance; unfortunately, he didn't. In either case, a reshoot is mandatory, after you have restored your protective equipment. The correct rules are 5.4.3 through US 5.4.5. Intentional removal of eye or hearing protection is grounds for an unsportsmanlike DQ, but accidental loss results in a reshoot. If you'd asked for a reshoot after you finished, it seems that would be a reasonable request, since you weren't stopped during the COF. There is no rule that covers a post COF request, either for or against, BTW. Best practice is to stop when this happens--even though you are hardhe...er, tenacious.

Troy

I've got one for you Troy... I started a COF and one of muffs was not seated properly (I have big ears ) It looked as if they were on properly, felt like it too, but the first shot gave me a ringer. I shot two targets before I gave up and USCed. I told the RO my hearing protection wasn't seated properly and I was getting blasted. I asked for a reshoot and was granted one. (local match not USPSA sanctioned event) would I be entitled to a reshoot if it appeared my hearing protection was in place? I did stop after two, all As, but it could be a gamer that throw a bad shot. Regardless, I'm not going to bang away with an open without properly secured hearing protection. Is there criteria for the call? Obviously the guy can't shoot the whole COF and then bitch about hearing protection. I would think it would have to be a common sense thing with the RO and possibly the RM. The guy shoots a couple of shots and you see him flinching... he stops and requests a reshoot.... How would you handle it Troy? Kyle?

Edited May 27, 2008 by JThompson

[Gary Stevens]

This is actually a very relevant topic after Area 8. I watched, from my trusty 4-wheeler, Roert Vogel darn near knock himself out after tripping and running his head into the window frame on Stage 10. The impact knocked his ear protection off, and I couldn't see if he was also plugged, but he continued on and finished the last 8 shots.

I participated in a discussion with the RO's sometime after the incident was well over. I said then that not knowing if they were using plugs and muffs, I would probably let the shooter stop themselves if it only involved the ear protection, but would definately stop them if they lost their eye protection.

After reading the appropriate rules again, and also this thread where shooters don't know they can stop themselves, I now will instruct that everyone who gets in this situation be stopped immediately regardless of the possibility they are also wearing plugs.

Never too late to learn regardless of who you are.

Gary

[JThompson]

This is actually a very relevant topic after Area 8. I watched, from my trusty 4-wheeler, Roert Vogel darn near knock himself out after tripping and running his head into the window frame on Stage 10. The impact knocked his ear protection off, and I couldn't see if he was also plugged, but he continued on and finished the last 8 shots.

I participated in a discussion with the RO's sometime after the incident was well over. I said then that not knowing if they were using plugs and muffs, I would probably let the shooter stop themselves if it only involved the ear protection, but would definately stop them if they lost their eye protection.

After reading the appropriate rules again, and also this thread where shooters don't know they can stop themselves, I now will instruct that everyone who gets in this situation be stopped immediately regardless of the possibility they are also wearing plugs.

Never too late to learn regardless of who you are.

Gary

S-why I love this forum.

[Flexmoney]

Me too, Gary. I instructed one of my RO's that it was pretty much on the shooter to stop themselves. Then Bob V. asked me about his situation (after he got to my stage) and I got the rule book out to look it up.