Letting slide drop on empty chamber?

[ltdmstr]

2 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

 

From what cha Lee is saying, and it makes sense, there is not impact at all regardless of a round being stripped or not. 

 

Valid point.  I was referring to dropping the slide on an empty.  Which I believe is what the OP was asking about.  That's not the same as when you run the gun dry and still have the trigger back when the slide comes forward.

[Dranoel]

23 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

When the slide starts to move back and the disconnector is pushed down by the under side of the slide, yes it doesn’t matter what the trigger press state is because the sear is in a “disconnected” condition. 

 

What you are missing is the disconnected state that remains when the trigger is held back after the gun fires and your finger is still holding the trigger back during the whole recoil event. The slide cycles back and forth well before the trigger finger is moved forward far enough to reset the disconnected state of the trigger action so another shot can be fired. 

 

This “holding the trigger back during recoil” is mechanically no different that intentionally holding the trigger back as you rack the slide manually. The sear is always in a disconnected state so there shouldn’t be a chance of a hammer follow as long as the sear lip to hammer hook engagement is setup properly.

 

Basically, shooting the gun dry is the exact same trigger action “disconnected” state as intentionally holding the trigger back and manually racking the slide.

 

I understand what you are saying. Yes, the trigger is disconnected when the slide goes back. But it's not the trigger itself we are worried about damaging. It's the sear tip and hammer hook and their interfacing surfaces.

 

But the disconnector has no bearing on that. The disconnector disconnects the trigger from the sear so the sear can engage the hammer when the slide clears it and the hammer starts to drop. At that point the trigger AND disconnector stay in their respective positions until the trigger is released. The disconnector doesn't reset until the trigger does because they are on the same leaf of the sear spring. So the only time the disconnector has ANY effect on the sear is when you squeeze the trigger. Once the disconnector is pushed down that's it. The sear is not effected by it. And if you are using a Clark 4 finger sear spring, the disconnector WILL reset but it still has no effect on the sear until you release the trigger that IT resets.

 

All that said, leaving your finger off the trigger when the slide slams forward is not going to effect the sear/hammer engagement unless we are talking about a Gov't issue M1911A1 with an all steel trigger that weighs half an ounce. I can see that potentially bouncing at hitting the sear with enough force, especially with a 2lb trigger to trip the sear and let the hammer fall to half cock. But how many of those are you going to find in a modern 1911/2011? Modern triggers, even with an full aluminum, unskeletonized trigger pad don't weigh 1/4 what an all steel one does.

 

Trigger forward or back, the sear still engages the hammer the same way and THAT is what takes the beating when the slide hits home.

[Dranoel]

30 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

 

Not sure how you can say the impact on the hammer/sear surfaces is the same when the slide strips a round from the magazine vs. going forward on an empty chamber.  It most certainly is not.

 

The difference in slide velocity stripping a round is minimal. It is not going to be the difference between your sear being damaged or not. 

[Matt1911]

I think this is another one of those perceived but not real consequences for gun abuse. 

Do what you do and don't worry about it. 

[B_RAD]

10 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Valid point.  I was referring to dropping the slide on an empty.  Which I believe is what the OP was asking about.  That's not the same as when you run the gun dry and still have the trigger back when the slide comes forward.

I'm the OP. I was actually asking with the concern of firing to empty.  There's no need in my mind to drop on an empty slide just to do it.  

[B_RAD]

29 minutes ago, Dranoel said:

 

I understand what you are saying. Yes, the trigger is disconnected when the slide goes back. But it's not the trigger itself we are worried about damaging. It's the sear tip and hammer hook and their interfacing surfaces.

 

But the disconnector has no bearing on that. The disconnector disconnects the trigger from the sear so the sear can engage the hammer when the slide clears it and the hammer starts to drop. At that point the trigger AND disconnector stay in their respective positions until the trigger is released. The disconnector doesn't reset until the trigger does because they are on the same leaf of the sear spring. So the only time the disconnector has ANY effect on the sear is when you squeeze the trigger. Once the disconnector is pushed down that's it. The sear is not effected by it. And if you are using a Clark 4 finger sear spring, the disconnector WILL reset but it still has no effect on the sear until you release the trigger that IT resets.

 

All that said, leaving your finger off the trigger when the slide slams forward is not going to effect the sear/hammer engagement unless we are talking about a Gov't issue M1911A1 with an all steel trigger that weighs half an ounce. I can see that potentially bouncing at hitting the sear with enough force, especially with a 2lb trigger to trip the sear and let the hammer fall to half cock. But how many of those are you going to find in a modern 1911/2011? Modern triggers, even with an full aluminum, unskeletonized trigger pad don't weigh 1/4 what an all steel one does.

 

Trigger forward or back, the sear still engages the hammer the same way and THAT is what takes the beating when the slide hits home.

So your saying the sear leg on the three leaf spring resets the sear as soon as the Disco drops down?  

 

I thought it didn't reset until the Disco comes back up (after trigger is released). Though, the spring is what resets it.... Oh no,..I've gone cross-eyed!

 

 

Edited October 14, 2018 by B_RAD

[Dranoel]

8 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

So your saying the sear leg on the three leaf spring resets the sear as soon as the Disco drops down?  

 

I thought it didn't reset until the Disco comes back up (after trigger is released). Though, the spring is what resets it.... Oh no,..I've gone cross-eyed!

 

 

 

If that was the case then what would be holding the hammer back until you released the trigger?

 

When the disconnector drops it disengages from the sear. That allows the sear's leaf on the sear spring to push the sear back into engagement with the hammer. The sear is ready to catch the hammer hooks before the slide is even fully rearward. But because the disconnector is still down nothing is able to engage the sear on the trigger side.

 

On a standard sear spring there are three leaves. The left is for the sear only, the middle acts on the disconnector and the trigger, the right is for the grip safety. 

[B_RAD]

5 minutes ago, Dranoel said:

 

If that was the case then what would be holding the hammer back until you released the trigger?

 

When the disconnector drops it disengages from the sear. That allows the sear's leaf on the sear spring to push the sear back into engagement with the hammer. The sear is ready to catch the hammer hooks before the slide is even fully rearward. But because the disconnector is still down nothing is able to engage the sear on the trigger side.

 

On a standard sear spring there are three leaves. The left is for the sear only, the middle acts on the disconnector and the trigger, the right is for the grip safety. 

Yeah I see what you're saying. 

[Ssanders224]

Dranoel is correct. 

 

Holding the trigger back while letting the slide forward accomplishes nothing. It is an old Gunsmith tale. The sear will be in the same position whether the trigger is held back or not.

You cannot affect the position of the sear until the slide is back in battery (obviously due to the disco). 

 

The only thing it COULD do, is prevent trigger bounce (and subsequently prevent the half hooks from hitting the sear) like Chalee said.  However, if you are getting trigger bounce when you drop a slide, your fire control parts are bad, and/or your trigger job is bad. 

 

Empty chamber VS stripping round is all but irrelevant in reference to the hammer falling to the sear.  The slide only "over cocks" the hammer by a very small amount. When the slide moves forward, and the hammer follows, the hammer only moves a very, very short distance before the hooks contact the (disconnected) sear.  Again, if the VERY tiny difference in hammer velocity affects your sear, your parts are bad, or your gunsmith is bad. 

 

All this being said, I wouldn't advocate going around and dropping empty slides. 

[B_RAD]

I went and grabbed one of my guns. Looking closely at the hammer/sear from above you can actually see that the sear engages the hooks again as soon as the hammer gets pushed back by the slide. You can see the sear is already engaged and does not move when you release the trigger. 

 

Thanks everyone..  good info. 

[CHA-LEE]

1 hour ago, B_RAD said:

 

From what cha Lee is saying, and it makes sense, there is not impact at all regardless of a round being stripped or not. 

 

There will always be sear lip to hammer hook impact when the slide cycles. It’s designed for that to happen because the hammer must be cocked beyond the sear to hammer hook engagement point to ensure the sear lip can snap down into the “cocked” position in front of the hammer hooks. This allows it to catch on the leading edge of the hammer hooks after the slide moves forward. This is usually called the “over cock” of the hammer. A well done trigger job will minimize the hammer over cock depth so the sear lip and hammer hooks don’t get excessively beat up as they ram into one another every time the slide cycles. My personal experience in doing 1911/2011 trigger jobs has found that setting up a properly reduced hammer over cock is a primary component to a long lasting trigger job. The sear lip 1st and 2nd surface angle and height cuts obviously have to be setup properly as well for a long lasting trigger job. But the proper hammer over cock setup is key in a long lasting trigger job.

 

There are many different important factors to consider and setup properly when doing a 1911/2011 trigger job. There are also important potential abuse scenarios to avoid that may lead to ruining a good trigger job. If you like your 2lb or under trigger job then don’t risk ruining it by performing aggressive empty chamber slide racking or slide lock drops without the trigger pulled and heald back. Other than being lazy, there is no valid reason to not lower the slide on an empty chamber in a smooth controlled manner. When you are making ready or done shooting there is no need to do that stuff in an aggressive or fast manner.

 

If your 1911/2011 has a 3+ lb trigger pull then the sear and trigger bow spring tension is probably sufficiently heavy to eliminate the chance of the half cock drop on an empty chamber. But most trigger snobs think that a 3+ lb trigger is a unacceptable on a 1911/2011 competition pistol.

 

 

[Ssanders224]

 

6 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

Other than being lazy, there is no valid reason to not lower the slide on an empty chamber in a smooth controlled manner. When you are making ready or done shooting there is no need to do that stuff in an aggressive or fast manner.

 

This. 

Lock the thread  

 

[B_RAD]

3 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

There will always be sear lip to hammer hook impact when the slide cycles. It’s designed for that to happen because the hammer must be cocked beyond the sear to hammer hook engagement point to ensure the sear lip can snap down into the “cocked” position in front of the hammer hooks. This allows it to catch on the leading edge of the hammer hooks after the slide moves forward. This is usually called the “over cock” of the hammer. A well done trigger job will minimize the hammer over cock depth so the sear lip and hammer hooks don’t get excessively beat up as they ram into one another every time the slide cycles. My personal experience in doing 1911/2011 trigger jobs has found that setting up a properly reduced hammer over cock is a primary component to a long lasting trigger job. The sear lip 1st and 2nd surface angle and height cuts obviously have to be setup properly as well for a long lasting trigger job. But the proper hammer over cock setup is key in a long lasting trigger job.

 

There are many different important factors to consider and setup properly when doing a 1911/2011 trigger job. There are also important potential abuse scenarios to avoid that may lead to ruining a good trigger job. If you like your 2lb or under trigger job then don’t risk ruining it by performing aggressive empty chamber slide racking or slide lock drops without the trigger pulled and heald back. Other than being lazy, there is no valid reason to not lower the slide on an empty chamber in a smooth controlled manner. When you are making ready or done shooting there is no need to do that stuff in an aggressive or fast manner.

 

If your 1911/2011 has a 3+ lb trigger pull then the sear and trigger bow spring tension is probably sufficiently heavy to eliminate the chance of the half cock drop on an empty chamber. But most trigger snobs think that a 3+ lb trigger is a unacceptable on a 1911/2011 competition pistol.

 

 

Is yours over 3lbs?

 

If so, you'll be the 3rd GM that's told me thiers are that heavy.  

 

My Titan was falling to half cock when I would really try to split fast on close targets. 

 

I asked Sanders about it. He asked how light my trigger was. I said 2lbs. He suggested I out a little more spring tension on the sear. That's solved my problem. I've since tweaked them all to between 2.5-3 lbs. 

 

 

[Dranoel]

The trigger on my .45 (my build, not a professional GS) is 22oz. and 3/32 pull length (1/32 take-up, 1/16 sear). It is nearly 5 yrs old and has somewhere around 4500-5000 rounds through it without a single part replacement. I'll make a video of this if you like, but I just slingshotted the slide 30 times with the trigger pulled back, then did it another 30 times without my finger on the trigger. Anyone want to guess which way had the most hammer follows?

 

I won't keep you in suspense.

 

It was a tie.

 

At ZERO.

 

Again, I'm not a pro gunsmith. I've built a couple dozen 1911s over the past 30 years. And I won't claim to be a supreme authority on the workings of them. But if an amateur like me can build a 1911 that will take 60 slide drops with no magazine in the way, let alone stripping ammo, without a single hammer follow, I would expect a pro to do at least as well.

[Ssanders224]

14 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

Is yours over 3lbs?

 

If so, you'll be the 3rd GM that's told me thiers are that heavy.  

 

My Titan was falling to half cock when I would really try to split fast on close targets. 

 

I asked Sanders about it. He asked how light my trigger was. I said 2lbs. He suggested I out a little more spring tension on the sear. That's solved my problem. I've since tweaked them all to between 2.5-3 lbs. 

 

 

 

Everyone has their own opinions on triggers. 

A 3lb 2011 trigger, IF IT HAS ZERO CREEP AND A NICE POSITIVE RESET, doesn't bother me at all. 

I see no improvement in any aspect of my shooting by taking it down to the 1-1.5 lb range. 

[CHA-LEE]

The optimal overall trigger pull weight for me is 2lb 4oz. I have tried heavier and lighter in varying combinations of trigger return vs sear push through spring tensions. I settled on the 2lb 4oz weight with a bias to a lighter sear push through weight as that works the best for me overall in a good mixture of shot difficulty and extreme range weather temps. Here in Colorado we shoot in temps ranging from 20 - 110 degrees through the year. The temp changes don’t affect the mechanical function of the gun. But it absolutely affects the feeling, strength and flexibility of your fingers. There is usually a spike of AD’s in local matches when the winter months come around because that awesome sub 2lb trigger can’t even be felt before it goes off with frozen numb fingers.