Letting slide drop on empty chamber?

[B_RAD]

I know this is a topic that's been discussed a lot. In the carry 1911 world it's frowned upon. To the point that it kinda indicates somone is a newb or worse or at least has that stigma attached to doing it! Folks that shoot 1911/2011's for competition with mags setup not to lock back don't seem to sweat it as much. It's kinda difficult to shoot live fire and not have it happen. 

 

When I first got my limited gun, I worried about it. I would put a dummy round in for the last round. I've pretty much stopped. Anyone else trying to prevent the epmty slide forwarding to battery?

 

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by B_RAD

[Matt1911]

Never worried about it, never had issues. 

[Dranoel]

There is NOTHING that you can do, functionally, that is more stressful or harmful to your pistol....

 

Than FIRING it.

[assaulter]

What you don't want to do is let the slide go forward without holding the trigger to the rear.  This allows the sear to slam against the hammer hooks.  With the trigger to the rear the dissconnector prevents this from happening,which is the condition when you are firing the gun.

[zzt]

When you miscount and run dry during a match and hear the dreaded 'click', the slide has already closed on an empty chamber and the trigger may have been past the reset point at the time.  It has happened to me about a half dozen times in the last three seasons, mostly when I have a problem.  It does not seem to have caused any damage.  I've never had that problem with my 1911s, because the mags always lock the slide back on empty.

[tkane]

I'm new to the 2011 platform.

I'd always been told its the fastest way to ruin your trigger job.

I have no idea if that is true.

I try not to do it just in case, but if it benefits me in a stage plan to run empty I won't hesitate to do it.

[Dranoel]

3 hours ago, assaulter said:

What you don't want to do is let the slide go forward without holding the trigger to the rear.  This allows the sear to slam against the hammer hooks.  With the trigger to the rear the dissconnector prevents this from happening,which is the condition when you are firing the gun.

 

When you fire, the slide goes back, cocking the hammer and holding it until the slide moves forward. Once the slide clears the hammer, the hammer will fall and be caught by the sear. Same as dropping the slide on an empty chamber.

 

As I said, there is no function you can perform manually that will hurt it more than firing it.

 

[pskys2]

The real life issues with it, outside of repeatedly doing it in practice, is it is hard on the sear/hammer connection causing the trigger pull to lose that glass rod break quicker.

I do my own triggers, not that hard really, set them at 2 1/2 pounds and they last forever.  I found that running at or below 2 pounds to be easier to be put out of whack.

My 1911's triggers don't seem to ever go bad, combo of steel frame (no flexing) and slide locks back (no sear/hammer stress).

My 2011's trigger needs a touch up every season, when I'm actually shooting?!, as I invariably have a few practice sessions that I forget and run dry and "rarely" will do so in a match.

Though it does seem that the poly frame of a 2011 flexing does make a really good trigger a bit harder to maintain.

 

So long story short, unless you have a premium light weight trigger pull, it's not a big issue if you just don't do it in practice and try not to do it in a match (if you do it there you are also costing yourself valuable time anyway).  If you do have a really good or light trigger consider getting a jig and learning to do it yourself.  Then if it starts to feel less than optimum, you just touch it up.

[WidowsSon683]

7 hours ago, B_RAD said:

I know this is a topic that's been discussed a lot. In the carry 1911 world it's frowned upon. To the point that it kinda indicates somone is a newb or worse or at least has that stigma attached to doing it! Folks that shoot 1911/2011's for competition with mags setup not to lock back don't seem to sweat it as much. It's kinda difficult to shoot live fire and not have it happen. 

 

When I first got my limited gun, I worried about it. I would put a dummy round in for the last round. I've pretty much stopped. Anyone else trying to prevent the epmty slide forwarding to battery?

 

 

Who frowns upon it? There is no difference in that and dropping the slide with a loaded mag in the gun. The slide goes to the exact same position either way with no ill effect on the pistol. This sounds like it started with the same people who said dry firing was bad for your gun.

[Trent1k1]

^^^^this.  

 

[Posvar]

I see it all the time and some people give the culprit the look of death. I’ve always tried to avoid it but it does happen occasionally during dry fire 

[B_RAD]

3 hours ago, WidowsSon683 said:

Who frowns upon it? There is no difference in that and dropping the slide with a loaded mag in the gun. The slide goes to the exact same position either way with no ill effect on the pistol. This sounds like it started with the same people who said dry firing was bad for your gun.

I said in the carry 1911 world. Before competing with a 2011 I never did it becausey mags always locked open on the empty mag and I never let the slide down that  way. I've always heard it was bad for the trigger job and bad for the extractor. I even remember someone commenting on a video Adam w/Atlas did about it. They mocked him for doing it.

 

 

I only ask now because when practicing, I run empty a lot. The few times it happens during a match don't concern me. 

 

Edited October 14, 2018 by B_RAD

[Dranoel]

3 hours ago, WidowsSon683 said:

Who frowns upon it? There is no difference in that and dropping the slide with a loaded mag in the gun. The slide goes to the exact same position either way with no ill effect on the pistol. This sounds like it started with the same people who said dry firing was bad for your gun.

 

And "It's a slide LOCK not a release."  If it wasn't meant to release the slide, why is there a thumb pad on it? If it was just supposed to be a lock, they could have made it entirely internal.

 

Honestly, if I ever bought a firearm that I had to baby and treat gently, it wouldn't be in my possession very long.

[assaulter]

The act of chambering a round strips some of the energy of the forward slide travel.  To say there is no difference at all is not true.  An occasional drop isn't going to hurt it, but I avoid it if I can.  Your gun your rules.

[Nevadazielmeister]

Watch what happens to any firearm when it fires during slow motion and you will wonder how it all stays together, but it does. It would seem dry firing, releasing a slide forward on an empty chamber, dropping a firearm, and leaving your gun dirty are not going to hurt it. 

[Bkreutz]

I don't worry about it, every 2011 shooter I know of lets the slide drop on an empty chamber at the end of every stage when the RO instructs him to "unload and show clear", then "if clear, hammer down and holster", I've never seen anyone NOT let the slide slam forward. That's an awful lot of slides slamming on an empty chamber. You're overthinking it.

[CHA-LEE]

The avoidance of allowing the slide to slam forward on an empty chamber is justified once the trigger pull weight gets at or below 2lbs. When the trigger is setup that light there is a higher chance that the sear spring weight is on the edge of being too light. If the sear spring weight isn’t sufficient it can cause the sear to slip over the hammer hooks when the slide is slammed forward which usually leads to the hammer falling to the half cock position. Most light competition trigger jobs can only handle a handful of half cock drops before the sear lip angles get beat up enough to ruin the reliable sear to hammer engagement. And that is with using good quality parts like EGW stuff. Use crappy trigger parts and the total quantity of half cock drops before it’s ruined is even less.

 

Another scenario that can cause the dreaded half cock drops is trigger bow bounce. Basically the weight and inertia of the trigger shoe/bow bouncing backwards during an empty chamber slide drop is just enough to cause the sear to move up the hammer hooks and lose engagement leading to the half cock drop scenario.

 

A properly setup trigger should never have a hammer follow or half cock drop if you hold the trigger back and aggressively rack the slide or slide lock drop it. When trigger weights are below 2lbs it’s not uncommon to have a half cock drop once or twice in every 10-15 slide lock drops without the trigger pulled back. 

 

Its up to you in minimizing the chances of a half cock drop event to preserve your trigger job. Racking the slide hard or slide lock dropping on an empty chamber is a good way to produce a half cock drop. This is why those actions are frowned upon.

[Don_B]

5 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

The avoidance of allowing the slide to slam forward on an empty chamber is justified once the trigger pull weight gets at or below 2lbs. When the trigger is setup that light there is a higher chance that the sear spring weight is on the edge of being too light. If the sear spring weight isn’t sufficient it can cause the sear to slip over the hammer hooks when the slide is slammed forward which usually leads to the hammer falling to the half cock position. Most light competition trigger jobs can only handle a handful of half cock drops before the sear lip angles get beat up enough to ruin the reliable sear to hammer engagement. And that is with using good quality parts like EGW stuff. Use crappy trigger parts and the total quantity of half cock drops before it’s ruined is even less.

 

Another scenario that can cause the dreaded half cock drops is trigger bow bounce. Basically the weight and inertia of the trigger shoe/bow bouncing backwards during an empty chamber slide drop is just enough to cause the sear to move up the hammer hooks and lose engagement leading to the half cock drop scenario.

 

A properly setup trigger should never have a hammer follow or half cock drop if you hold the trigger back and aggressively rack the slide or slide lock drop it. When trigger weights are below 2lbs it’s not uncommon to have a half cock drop once or twice in every 10-15 slide lock drops without the trigger pulled back. 

 

Its up to you in minimizing the chances of a half cock drop event to preserve your trigger job. Racking the slide hard or slide lock dropping on an empty chamber is a good way to produce a half cock drop. This is why those actions are frowned upon.

This is very good information and advice. No one has to heed it but that is just like saying. "I smoke a pack of cigarettes a day and nothing happens". Sooner or later you will have to pay the price. 

 

It it is not very difficult to hold the slide and ease it forward.   

[B_RAD]

1 hour ago, CHA-LEE said:

The avoidance of allowing the slide to slam forward on an empty chamber is justified once the trigger pull weight gets at or below 2lbs. When the trigger is setup that light there is a higher chance that the sear spring weight is on the edge of being too light. If the sear spring weight isn’t sufficient it can cause the sear to slip over the hammer hooks when the slide is slammed forward which usually leads to the hammer falling to the half cock position. Most light competition trigger jobs can only handle a handful of half cock drops before the sear lip angles get beat up enough to ruin the reliable sear to hammer engagement. And that is with using good quality parts like EGW stuff. Use crappy trigger parts and the total quantity of half cock drops before it’s ruined is even less.

 

Another scenario that can cause the dreaded half cock drops is trigger bow bounce. Basically the weight and inertia of the trigger shoe/bow bouncing backwards during an empty chamber slide drop is just enough to cause the sear to move up the hammer hooks and lose engagement leading to the half cock drop scenario.

 

A properly setup trigger should never have a hammer follow or half cock drop if you hold the trigger back and aggressively rack the slide or slide lock drop it. When trigger weights are below 2lbs it’s not uncommon to have a half cock drop once or twice in every 10-15 slide lock drops without the trigger pulled back. 

 

Its up to you in minimizing the chances of a half cock drop event to preserve your trigger job. Racking the slide hard or slide lock dropping on an empty chamber is a good way to produce a half cock drop. This is why those actions are frowned upon.

Thanks for the info!

[CHA-LEE]

I also want to point out that when you shoot a 1911/2011 Dry and the slide slams forward on an empty chamber 99.9% of the time your trigger finger is still holding the trigger back in the “disconnected” state. This eliminates the half cock drop scenario because the action is in a disconnected state.

 

The cyclic rate of the slide is way faster than the movement of your finger. The slide cycles in .04 - .06 when a shot fires and is even faster when a round isn’t chambered. It’s very rare that someone can produce shot to shot splits below .10 so it’s highly unlikely that your finger can move forward fast enough to generate a non-disconnected action condition before the slide snaps forward.

 

This is why it’s invalid to compare shooting the gun dry and manually racking or dropping the slide on an empty chamber.

[Dranoel]

1 hour ago, CHA-LEE said:

I also want to point out that when you shoot a 1911/2011 Dry and the slide slams forward on an empty chamber 99.9% of the time your trigger finger is still holding the trigger back in the “disconnected” state. This eliminates the half cock drop scenario because the action is in a disconnected state.

 

The cyclic rate of the slide is way faster than the movement of your finger. The slide cycles in .04 - .06 when a shot fires and is even faster when a round isn’t chambered. It’s very rare that someone can produce shot to shot splits below .10 so it’s highly unlikely that your finger can move forward fast enough to generate a non-disconnected action condition before the slide snaps forward.

 

This is why it’s invalid to compare shooting the gun dry and manually racking or dropping the slide on an empty chamber.

 

Thing is, the trigger is disconnected from the sear, but the sear is NOT disengaged.

 

After the round fires, the slide starts rearward and the trigger disconnected before the empty case is clear of the chamber. That allows the sear to reset end engage the hammer hooks. Same as racking the slide and locking it or slingshotting it. At that point the trigger has no bearing on that engagement whether all the back or all the way forward. The sear/hammer engagement is going to take the exact same hit whether firing or dropping and regardless of the trigger position.

 

As for light trigger setups being more susceptible, Yes, I can see that, especially knowing how some smiths achieve it. I just got rid of a Kimber Custom TLE II that had a trigger job done by a "certified" gunsmith. Trigger pull was still above 3lbs and I still got hammer follow with it. The reason for that was that he had ground the hammer hooks off until there was barely any engagement at all. I'll admit, it felt pretty damn nice. But the hammer followed dropping the slide every time and it followed 1 out 5 times firing it. Wrong way to do a trigger job. I've also seen some pretty nice triggers done with stock parts. But when those parts are inferior, they damage easier.

 

I know who you are and I respect your work and I respect your opinion. In this case, however, I don't think you are fully considering what is where at all points of the slide cycle. Consider for a moment what happens in the lockwork when the slide goes back, I think you will see that whether under recoil or hand pulled, it's all the same. And when the slide slams closed, empty, loaded, dropped or recovering from fired rounds, trigger forward or back, there is no difference in the engagement of the sear and hammer or the hit they take in the process.

 

 

[CHA-LEE]

36 minutes ago, Dranoel said:

 

Thing is, the trigger is disconnected from the sear, but the sear is NOT disengaged.

 

After the round fires, the slide starts rearward and the trigger disconnected before the empty case is clear of the chamber. That allows the sear to reset end engage the hammer hooks. Same as racking the slide and locking it or slingshotting it. At that point the trigger has no bearing on that engagement whether all the back or all the way forward. The sear/hammer engagement is going to take the exact same hit whether firing or dropping and regardless of the trigger position.

 

As for light trigger setups being more susceptible, Yes, I can see that, especially knowing how some smiths achieve it. I just got rid of a Kimber Custom TLE II that had a trigger job done by a "certified" gunsmith. Trigger pull was still above 3lbs and I still got hammer follow with it. The reason for that was that he had ground the hammer hooks off until there was barely any engagement at all. I'll admit, it felt pretty damn nice. But the hammer followed dropping the slide every time and it followed 1 out 5 times firing it. Wrong way to do a trigger job. I've also seen some pretty nice triggers done with stock parts. But when those parts are inferior, they damage easier.

 

I know who you are and I respect your work and I respect your opinion. In this case, however, I don't think you are fully considering what is where at all points of the slide cycle. Consider for a moment what happens in the lockwork when the slide goes back, I think you will see that whether under recoil or hand pulled, it's all the same. And when the slide slams closed, empty, loaded, dropped or recovering from fired rounds, trigger forward or back, there is no difference in the engagement of the sear and hammer or the hit they take in the process.

 

 

 

When the slide starts to move back and the disconnector is pushed down by the under side of the slide, yes it doesn’t matter what the trigger press state is because the sear is in a “disconnected” condition. 

 

What you are missing is the disconnected state that remains when the trigger is held back after the gun fires and your finger is still holding the trigger back during the whole recoil event. The slide cycles back and forth well before the trigger finger is moved forward far enough to reset the disconnected state of the trigger action so another shot can be fired. 

 

This “holding the trigger back during recoil” is mechanically no different that intentionally holding the trigger back as you rack the slide manually. The sear is always in a disconnected state so there shouldn’t be a chance of a hammer follow as long as the sear lip to hammer hook engagement is setup properly.

 

Basically, shooting the gun dry is the exact same trigger action “disconnected” state as intentionally holding the trigger back and manually racking the slide.

[ltdmstr]

 

47 minutes ago, Dranoel said:

And when the slide slams closed, empty, loaded, dropped or recovering from fired rounds, trigger forward or back, there is no difference in the engagement of the sear and hammer or the hit they take in the process.

 

Not sure how you can say the impact on the hammer/sear surfaces is the same when the slide strips a round from the magazine vs. going forward on an empty chamber.  It most certainly is not.

[Ken6PPC]

5 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

 

Not sure how you can say the impact on the hammer/sear surfaces is the same when the slide strips a round from the magazine vs. going forward on an empty chamber.  It most certainly is not.

 

+1

[B_RAD]

16 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

 

Not sure how you can say the impact on the hammer/sear surfaces is the same when the slide strips a round from the magazine vs. going forward on an empty chamber.  It most certainly is not.

 

10 minutes ago, Ken6PPC said:

 

+1

From what cha Lee is saying, and it makes sense, there is not impact at all regardless of a round being stripped or not.