Why Not Producton Major?

[Vlad]

Nice discussion but what will really happen in the USA after the GA in Ecuador if the GA decides to change PD in IPSC? Does anyone what your RD will decide?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm sorry .. what? English is not my first language either so can you rephrase that.

[driver8M3]

I suspect people will go for the capacity, but at those who cant afford the super wiz bang "production" race guns will be able to bring their 13 round .40's or .45's and not feel completely left out.

I think Jim had a speculative question. More of an intelectual "what if".  No one told anyone what to do.

why speculate. lets just look at what everyone shoots in limited. in limited you have the same option jim is suggesting. how many limited minors do you see? at the nationals, about 10 out of 240 chose minor. it sure looks like if people have the option, they prefer major scoring over increased capacity. personally, i think major scoring is a bit overrated...after all, an A hit is 5 points no matter what.

[NPSA 86-259]

I'm sorry .. what? English is not my first language either so can you rephrase that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK, is Nederlands beter, oder in die Deutsche sprache, parlez vous francais, spanish might also be an option.

GA = General Assembly

[Jake Di Vita]

I would really appreciate it if you curbed your tone a bit...it's getting dangerously close to the line.

[Chuck D]

My new PD gun is a G21 in 45...downloaded of course.

So far...I don't feel left out.

In reality...I wish USPSA would adopt a minimum pf floor...say 125 p.f.

If you make it...you score major. If not...you shoot for fun only.

[Vlad]

I suspect people will go for the capacity, but at those who cant afford the super wiz bang "production" race guns will be able to bring their 13 round .40's or .45's and not feel completely left out.

I think Jim had a speculative question. More of an intelectual "what if".  No one told anyone what to do.

why speculate. lets just look at what everyone shoots in limited. in limited you have the same option jim is suggesting. how many limited minors do you see? at the nationals, about 10 out of 240 chose minor. it sure looks like if people have the option, they prefer major scoring over increased capacity. personally, i think major scoring is a bit overrated...after all, an A hit is 5 points no matter what.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And you may be right. I do think there are a couple of differences however. With flush magazine rules the production capacity is generally not large enough to finish most stages, at least the longer USPSA kind ones. You are generally going to need a reload. Let me put it this way .. 17rd 9mm Glock scored minor or 15rd .40 Glock scored major? Thats a tougher choice in my opinion. You may need to do an extra reload on some really long stages using the .40 but the scoring advantage might be meaningfull overall.

The second reason, that most limited/standard guns cost $2000 and are LARGE. The average shooter showing up for the first time shooting production is much more likely to shoot a 15rd 9mm or a 13 round .40. IF you allow full size mags in production and want to make it friendly to newcomers then I think allowing the guys shooting major to be scored major would be a nice move. Most new shooters who shoot .40 or .45 in production do shoot factory ammo which very different from the usual 147gr slow moving 9mm 132 PF load that I shoot.

Personally I say keep the 10rd limit. This is an exercise in how we could do it differently if we want to.

[Vlad]

I'm sorry .. what? English is not my first language either so can you rephrase that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK, is Nederlands beter, oder in die Deutsche sprache, parlez vous francais, spanish might also be an option.

GA = General Assembly

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Clearly, however my lack of understanding concerns which particular GA decission you are refering and what "Does anyone what your RD will decide?" means. Also keep in mind the the USPSA rule book is not directly affected by GA votes.

[NPSA 86-259]

OK, I got the message, I will no further interfere. I thought it was about IPSC but it is about USPSA and of this rule book I don't know anything about.

[Larry White]

USPSA production division was created to bring in new shooters and give them a place to play on even ground with thier 9mm factory guns,minor pf and 10rd mags. It worked,it also brought some IDPA crossover shooters. A large number of these new shooters have stayed, some have moved on to L10 or limited or even open and some tried and left, but it worked. And it is still working. It is one of the very few ideas to increase the shooter base that worked just like it was meant to. Lets leave it alone.------Larry

[Jim Norman]

OK, Since I am the guy that started this I'd like to clear up a few things.

This thread is NOT about USPSA, it was about IPSC. In USPSA, we have a 10 round limit in Production there is no problem shooting a Sig 226 or a G22 or any other gun so long as it is DA. In IPSC, there is no capacity limit so 9mm rule. It simply is not competative to shoot a .40 cal gun. And we are starting to see an equipment race in that there are guns being built to the rule with larger andlarger capacity. Again 9mm is the rule in fact even if it is not written. If we scored Major/Minor, we would allow people that don't have a Standard Gun or an Open Gun, but do have another gun to come inand be competative.

This was the premise of this discussion.

So let's get back on track here.

Thank you

Jim Norman

[spook]

I think a capacity limit would be the best solution for the "problem".

Personally I would go for 15+1, but this still rules out a lot of .40's based on their 15+1 9mm counterparts. So maybe 10+1 is the way to go.

The big advantage of going 10+1 is that a couple of IPSC countires (Australia, Canada) and some US States can finally play in a real IPSC division without a handicap.

[Chuck Anderson]

Great discussion, but I'd be more worried about the bigger concerns that the GA is going to address this week. They're talking about removing the allowance of grip tape, aftermarket sights and aftermarket mags from Production. Personnally I think this would be a horrible idea. These modifications allow cheaper guns, i.e Glock, Springfield etc to compete with really expensive race guns like the Tanfoglio.

If you're going to suggest anything for this year it's a bit late. My choice would be to stay away from Major/Minor in Production. Score everything as Major with a 125 pf floor. Barring that I'd rather stick with the Minor scoring.

[spook]

Great discussion, but I'd be more worried about the bigger concerns that the GA is going to address this week.  They're talking about removing the allowance of grip tape, aftermarket sights and aftermarket mags from Production.  Personnally I think this would be a horrible idea.  These modifications allow cheaper guns, i.e Glock, Springfield etc to compete with really expensive race guns like the Tanfoglio. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lawman, do not forget that they're also going to discuss the allowance of the Tanfoglio you mentioned (and some other guns such as the CZ SP01)

Basically, this GA will decide if PD will have box-stock-duty-guns only, or allow "custom" guns (built exactly to IPSC PD norm) and tinkering.

But I share your opinion. Grip tape and aftermarket sights will allow any gun with a reasonable capacity to be competitive.

[XRe]

Score everything as Major with a 125 pf floor.  Barring that I'd rather stick with the Minor scoring.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This change is irrelevant... If everything in the division is scored the same, it doesn't matter (much). The only difference is how much bias you want on accuracy....

[Chuck Anderson]

I beg to differ. Scoring everything as major would have a huge effect on the way stages are shot. As far as the equipment race, no, there would not be a change. But the bias towards accuracy would go away. There is a substantial speed difference, for me at least, between trying to get 2 A's on each target and settling for A/C on a lot of targets. In Major you can get away with the A/C. In Minor if you're dropping to many points it doesn't matter how fast you go.

[XRe]

In other words, you agree with me...

[Nik Habicht]

But the bias towards accuracy would go away.  There is a substantial speed difference, for me at least, between trying to get 2 A's on each target and settling for A/C on a lot of targets.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Take a good look at Dave Sevigny's points on the stages he shot at both nationals this year, one minor, one major. I don't notice a significant change.....

[Patrick Sweeney]

You don't judge a system by the exceptions, unless the intention of the system is to produce exceptions. That Dave shot lots 'n lots of A's should come as no surprise. He shoots lots of them because he has to, as all the top dogs must.

If Production was scored Major/Minor, there'd be no Minor shooters. The top shooters couldn't give up any points, and the rest would shoot Major because "the GMs do it, and I can't be uncompetitive." The entry cost for the new shooter would move up a step, and we'd lose a few new shooters because of it.

The son of our club VP shot a Minor Limited gun (because it was what he had) to be the State Champ one year. As soon as he could, he switched to a .40 Limited gun and shot Major. As good as he was shooting Minor, he could shoot a better stage factor at Major, even with fewer rounds.

As for the "problem" of manufacturers building guns to meet the specs for Production, what's the problem? It seems to me that if we're relevant enough, and a big enough market, for the makers to be making special models just for us, we've won. As long as the rules are clear and relevant, let the manufacturers knock themselves out on our behalf.

As for IPSC, they've gotta do what they've gotta do, to keep the various "Ministers of Sport" off their backs. That doesn't mean we have to follow, except for the few Team shooters every third year.

[Loves2Shoot]

I beg to differ.  Scoring everything as major would have a huge effect on the way stages are shot.  As far as the equipment race, no, there would not be a change.  But the bias towards accuracy would go away.  There is a substantial speed difference, for me at least, between trying to get 2 A's on each target and settling for A/C on a lot of targets.  In Major you can get away with the A/C.  In Minor if you're dropping to many points it doesn't matter how fast you go.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ditto.

[Flexmoney]

I love Minor scoring for Production. It really forces the shooters to strike a balance between speed and accuracy...and, you still need some power to drive the steel down. With the 10 rounds in the mag limit, stage planning is a priority as well.

Shooting-wise...USPSA Production is great. It is also economically viable. And, the logistics of running the guns that fit the Division are also good (Glocks, Berettas, CZs in 9mm, 40 or 45...guns and ammo are readily available..cheaply).

The "approved gun list" is problem that I think drags at IPSC and USPSA Production.

Anyway...back on topic...

If IPSC wants to do away with the bias of the highest capacity 9mm gun, then they might just want to look at the USPSA model to see what has been working great for us.

[Bucky]

Jim,

The Para LDA gets 16+1 in .40. I'm sure with a little tweaking, someone will get 17 rounds of .40. With the "real" flush fit 9mm mags, some are getting 18+1. Seems to me that you just created the P16 division with maybe a few savvy people gettign 16+1 in a Glock 22.

[Jim Norman]

Bucky,

As it currently stand we have a 9mm division. All I was doing was wondering if scoring Major minor would correct that to something more like we have in the USPSA. Keep in mind, here in the US withe 10 round limit in Production, I can be competative with almost any gun, in IPSC, I have very frew choices as I am pretty much relegated to 9mm and as new gunss are built to the rule, the capacity delta will likely increase! I can picture a G-17 with a extra-long grip that will contain a 33 roung g18 magazine. All they need to do is get someone to approve it forthe list.

Jim Norman

[Bucky]

Jim,

I understand exactly what you are suggesting. What I am saying is that under the current IPSC production rules, if you add the major / minor factor, the number of "competitive guns" will decrease, NOT increase. The very few major caliber guns that approach the current 9mm capacity would be the logical choice. As it stands now, there are many viable options, but yes you are correct in that they are all 9mm.

As to your 33 round scenario, that would be changing more than just the major minor scoring system.

Bucky.

[MagicTH]

Chuck is not wrong.

Allowing major/minor in production would be the same as telling all 9mm shooters "your equipment cannot compete effectively, please talk to us after you buy another gun."

As a new shooter to USPSA the opposite is also true. I bought an XD45 before I knew USPSA existed and you are basically telling me the same thing...either I go buy a 9mm for Production or spend even more money on a jazzed up limited gun.

[Flexmoney]

Nah...just shoot Limited-10. The XD in 45 fits right into that division.

Or, if you are reloading...go with some downloaded 45 in Production.