Dillon 650 inconsistent oal with Dillon seating die 9mm

[OptimiStick]

On 8/21/2018 at 10:53 AM, Sarge said:

To work all of this out takes patience and practice.

1. Make sure shell plate is not overly loose and sloppy. 

2. Sort brass by headstamp.

3. Use case lube.

4. Understand that any rounds coming off of a full shell plate will be different lengths than those coming from a partially empty plate.

5. Don’t pull the handle and measure one at a time. Keep the press moving at combat speed.

6. Start loading and set the first round off the press aside. Then pull the handle 20 times. Measure those 20 rounds and see what you get.

 

If you do all of the above that’s about as good as it gets. Micrometer dies are a waste of money for what we do and still don’t make a difference if you skip any of the above steps.

Question on this -  With the mixed headstamp brass being different length, wouldn't the seating die still seat to the same OAL, but just pushing the pill deeper into longer brass? To be clear, this isn't a 'you're wrong' post. This is a 'please educate me' post. I'm about to sort by headstamp and give it a shot in search of a more consistent OAL. I knew guys sorted by headstamp, but I thought it was mostly guys sorting for major and weeding out some of the ledged and less desirable brass for 9mm major.

[Sarge]

5 minutes ago, OptimiStick said:

Question on this -  With the mixed headstamp brass being different length, wouldn't the seating die still seat to the same OAL, but just pushing the pill deeper into longer brass? To be clear, this isn't a 'you're wrong' post. This is a 'please educate me' post. I'm about to sort by headstamp and give it a shot in search of a more consistent OAL. I knew guys sorted by headstamp, but I thought it was mostly guys sorting for major and weeding out some of the ledged and less desirable brass for 9mm major.

This has been discussed several times over the years here. I freely admit I don't fully understand why it happens and probably said the same thing as you the first time I heard it. But the fact remains different headstamps will indeed produce different oals. Generally speaking, not by a whole lot but without doubt it is a very real difference. Could be any number of things but I now tend to believe it has to do with case wall thickness. Thicker case walls means pushing on the bullet harder to get it to seat. For all I know it could just be deforming the nose a little to account for a thou here or there. 

[rooster]

51 minutes ago, Sarge said:

This has been discussed several times over the years here. I freely admit I don't fully understand why it happens and probably said the same thing as you the first time I heard it. But the fact remains different headstamps will indeed produce different oals. Generally speaking, not by a whole lot but without doubt it is a very real difference. Could be any number of things but I now tend to believe it has to do with case wall thickness. Thicker case walls means pushing on the bullet harder to get it to seat. For all I know it could just be deforming the nose a little to account for a thou here or there. 

 

1 hour ago, OptimiStick said:

Question on this -  With the mixed headstamp brass being different length, wouldn't the seating die still seat to the same OAL, but just pushing the pill deeper into longer brass? To be clear, this isn't a 'you're wrong' post. This is a 'please educate me' post. I'm about to sort by headstamp and give it a shot in search of a more consistent OAL. I knew guys sorted by headstamp, but I thought it was mostly guys sorting for major and weeding out some of the ledged and less desirable brass for 9mm major.

I thought the same thing to.  You got fully loaded stations, the bottom of case to the point where the seating stem hits the bullet should be the same or within a few thou.  I guess all the little variables add up.  Brass not same size, different bullet oal, case wall thickness,  the way you pull the handle,  all I know is it used to drive me nuts, so I did the sort thing and it made a huge difference especially with precision delta 124 Jhp’s.  I sorted for awhile but what pita, really not needed for this game, plus I shoot a Glock so I don’t do it anymore.  

[OptimiStick]

My OAL has been all over the place lately, and I've been trying to get tighten it up a bit. I know it doesn't matter that much in what we do, but i'm also one of those guys that can't stand having dollars not all facing the same way, and in order of denomination (on those occasions my wife lets me have money). I'm about to sort a big chunk by headstamp and see if that helps. I've gone to clamping toolhead, micrometer seating die, tightened all the wobble out of the shell plate, re-aligned everything with rounds in every station. Honestly, I'm getting no more consistency than I was with dillon seating die , dillon toolhead, fair bit of slack/wobble in the shell-plate, and adjusting my seating die with only the case in the seating station. This is on a 650. 

 

Thanks for the education on sorting. I'll go give it a shot and see it cleans stuff up any.

[BentAero]

So how much variance is too much?

My goal COAL is 1.150"

Depending on brass and a full or partial shell plate, I've been getting 50% perfect, the remainder a wild mix anywhere from .140 to .160

Don't worry about it?

[OptimiStick]

Shooting for 1.1550 I was getting 1.1510 to 1.1690 at the extreme. Most falling in the 1.1540 to 1.1620 range.I see some guys commenting they get.002 consistency. I'd be thrilled. in my Atlas I have alot of chamber length to work with so it's not that big of a deal except for my OCD and desire for consistency. In my Acc-Shadow 2, the chamber is so dang short, that to make sure I could chamber, I just didn't load many 147s because it would get so dang short and .300 or deeper into the case one some of the rounds. I ended up shooting mostly Blues TC 135s because the profile was forgiving in my short chambered CZ. But now with the Atlas I'm getting to experiment with a bunch of different profiled 147s. Just ordered a batch of ACME 147 RNs and 145 FPs to try them out. 

[Bamaboy]

On 8/24/2018 at 10:54 PM, BentAero said:

Edumacate me about the torch. Do you heat the comp for a few seconds to soften the build-up then it scrapes out easier?

yes only till a carbon scraper can remove the material.  But after 5000 rounds since last comp cleaning, I looked today and there was nothing that needed to be cleaned.

[Bamaboy]

2 hours ago, OptimiStick said:

Shooting for 1.1550 I was getting 1.1510 to 1.1690 at the extreme. Most falling in the 1.1540 to 1.1620 range.I see some guys commenting they get.002 consistency. I'd be thrilled. in my Atlas I have alot of chamber length to work with so it's not that big of a deal except for my OCD and desire for consistency. In my Acc-Shadow 2, the chamber is so dang short, that to make sure I could chamber, I just didn't load many 147s because it would get so dang short and .300 or deeper into the case one some of the rounds. I ended up shooting mostly Blues TC 135s because the profile was forgiving in my short chambered CZ. But now with the Atlas I'm getting to experiment with a bunch of different profiled 147s. Just ordered a batch of ACME 147 RNs and 145 FPs to try them out. 

I want an atlas chaos so bad, but I don't have 6k to throw down right now, and my matchmaster is 1500 rounds in since last cleaning and I have had ZERO failures whatsoever.  2lb trigger pull and runs perfectly everytime.  It is my Baby

[AHI]

Just set up 1050 to load 9major. Set up with speer brass 1.165 length. got 1.163 to 1.166 most right on 1.165(did not check every one)loaded over 500 rounds. Then switched to WIN brass 

length went to over 1.170 no adjustments were maid. So brass has a large  influence on length.

[iflyskyhigh]

Loading on a Dillon 550. Precision Delta JHP. Mixed once fired brass. Lee dies. Looking for 1.115. Get 1.110 to 1.120. Good enough for pistol work. Find the Lee Factory Crimp Die really helps with mixed brass. Especially the CBC and Aguila brass!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[OptimiStick]

Yeah, I have Lee FCD and Lee U-Die for 9mm. The U-Die has slowed me down a good bit because of some station 1 mis-alignment issues, so i may have to go back to the Dillon sizer. Hate to give up the U-Die,but if I must I must. Anyway I just sorted 1200 cases today by headstamp, i'm about to reload a few hundred and I'll let you know how it does in the consistency department. I have separate groups of R-P, F C, X-Treme, WIN, Blazer, then a couple of misc piles for everything else that I just had a few of each. i'll report back. I'm not gonna lie, it was a bit of a PITA to do it.

[Sarge]

8 hours ago, OptimiStick said:

Yeah, I have Lee FCD and Lee U-Die for 9mm. The U-Die has slowed me down a good bit because of some station 1 mis-alignment issues, so i may have to go back to the Dillon sizer. Hate to give up the U-Die,but if I must I must. Anyway I just sorted 1200 cases today by headstamp, i'm about to reload a few hundred and I'll let you know how it does in the consistency department. I have separate groups of R-P, F C, X-Treme, WIN, Blazer, then a couple of misc piles for everything else that I just had a few of each. i'll report back. I'm not gonna lie, it was a bit of a PITA to do it.

Check for a kedg inside the xtreme cases. If you find any case with a ledge inside throw it away.

  Also, the press should run fine with a Udie. If it doesn’t you need to search out how to fix it.

[OptimiStick]

Yeah,I had read that about X-Treme. I had about 200 or so and none of them had a ledge. IMT and Maxxtech are the only ones I saw with the internal ledge.. My problem with the U-Die, I posted in another thread  - is because of the less generous chambfer than the Dillon die, it didn't cover up the mis-alignment as much as the Dillon did. I actually switched back to Dillon last night in my run, and I'm having the problem there too now. Just not quite as bad. My station 1 case is slightly mis-aligned, so when it goes into the sizing die, it goes in at a slight angle. Usually gets corrected, no problem. But it will occasionally 'catch', when it does, the case from the case feeder drops when the ram stroke hitches, and that case that drops bounces out of alignment with the bushing. So I have to stop and poke it back into alignment with the body bushing so the ram stroke can complete. I'll tinker with it today and put a call into Dillon next week. Somethings amiss for sure, and getting worse. I used to be able to hum right along, only stopping for an occasionaly (1 in 2-300 hundred) upside down case. Now i'm lucky if I can get 5-6 in a row with the U-Die before I get a stoppage. Maybe 10-12 with the Dillon sizing die.

Edited September 2, 2018 by OptimiStick

[OptimiStick]

Ran 200 and case gauged last night, but I didn't get a chance to measure samples until today. Sorting worked. Extreme spread was 1.1375 to 1.1420 , with the vast majority at 1.1390 and 1.1400 . I had a few I ran through an empty shell plate, so that probably accounts for a few of the outliers. I sorted and just ran the WIN cases through. I measured a sample of the empty cases before I ran them through , and they varied a bit in length also a few thou. So I think that solves my OAL mystery. Thanks for the input on that one guys. I'll probably sort out match ammo and then just live with the spread on practice rounds.

[OptimiStick]

checked out the alignment issue, and I just don't see a way to keep the cases from dropping from the case-feed too early. The insert slide doesn't seem adjustable,other than flipping it for rifle and pistol. I'll give Dillon a call Tuesday. For now, I added an o-ring to the body bushing, that drops it down lower a bit, so the case drops still within it's interior and unable to bounce around out of alignment . It just barely clears the station 1 locator. it's not elegant, but it'll cover the symptom until we can cure the underlying issue.

[RiggerJJ]

The insert slide is indeed adjustable. Loosen the hex head screw and move the slide back and forth...

[Livin_cincy]

Assuming you are holding them to a length that makes them feed & chamber,  how do they shoot ?

Bullet Jump in handguns can be seen as negligible when you shoot 38's in 357's or 44 Specials in a 44 Magnum.   So the COAL should not be as significant as we think it is. This is because it is a handgun and not a rifle.   

You can always sort your brass, hand prime and measure depth, weigh your bullets, trickle your powder charge, adjust COAL on each one, and sign each one...  But this is what a single stage press is for.