Dillon 650 inconsistent oal with Dillon seating die 9mm

[Bamaboy]

I was setting up new test loads yesterday and my seating die would sometimes be off as much as .01  trying to get 1.170 I got some crazy differences in oal. Using 124 BBI round nose bullets. Is it the bullets or would a seating die with a micrometer be better

 

Thanks in advance

[MikeyScuba]

I sort by headstamp for my 9mm 929 revolver rounds.  I've discovered WIN cases needs an extra 1/8" turn down on the seating die or else I get 1.192 vs 1.185 I'm aiming for.  And that's with the Uniquetek toolhead clamp kit.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, Bamaboy said:

I was setting up new test loads yesterday and my seating die would sometimes be off as much as .01  trying to get 1.170 I got some crazy differences in oal. Using 124 BBI round nose bullets. Is it the bullets or would a seating die with a micrometer be better

 

Thanks in advance

To work all of this out takes patience and practice.

1. Make sure shell plate is not overly loose and sloppy. 

2. Sort brass by headstamp.

3. Use case lube.

4. Understand that any rounds coming off of a full shell plate will be different lengths than those coming from a partially empty plate.

5. Don’t pull the handle and measure one at a time. Keep the press moving at combat speed.

6. Start loading and set the first round off the press aside. Then pull the handle 20 times. Measure those 20 rounds and see what you get.

 

If you do all of the above that’s about as good as it gets. Micrometer dies are a waste of money for what we do and still don’t make a difference if you skip any of the above steps.

[rjacobs]

Measure 10 projectiles... none will measure the same.

 

And 1.170 seems REALLY long for 9mm.  Like "might not chamber" really long.

 

Only way to sort of get an accurate measurement that SHOULD be repeatable is a base to ogive measurement using something like the Hornady comparator tool...  

https://www.hornady.com/reloading/precision-measuring/precision-tools-and-gauges/lock-n-load-bullet-comparator#!/

 

If you are this anal about 9mm, NEVER load an OTM type rifle bullet like a SMK... you will drive yourself bonkers.

[MemphisMechanic]

1 hour ago, rjacobs said:

And 1.170 seems REALLY long for 9mm.  Like "might not chamber" really long.

 

He’s probably loading Major 9 for an Open gun.  

[Bamaboy]

3 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

He’s probably loading Major 9 for an Open gun.  

Yes that is correct and 1.178 will chamber in my gen 4 Glock 19 with factory barrel

[Dwbsig]

What kind of mags are you using that lets you load that long for a glock?

[Bamaboy]

I have not put them in a magazine yet lol I dropped it in the pipe let the slide go and racked it out

[Dwbsig]

Bama I was trying to load some as long as I could one time for a glock and could not get them to work that long lol. I think about 1.165 will close to max that will work maybe with r/n. I was loading 147-f/p and I think my max on those was about 1.155 they would hang up in the mag if I went much longer.

[Bamaboy]

Just now, Dwbsig said:

Bama I was trying to load some as long as I could one time for a glock and could not get them to work that long lol. I think about 1.165 will close to max that will work maybe with r/n. I was loading 147-f/p and I think my max on those was about 1.155 they would hang up in the mag if I went much longer.

I load everything else to 1.150 or so

[Dwbsig]

Those f/p bullets I am loading will be different then a r/n maybe you can get that long lol you'll find out tho lol. Good luck buddy

[IDescribe]

9mm SAAMI spec is max OAL 1.169, and that's supposed to be the longest the magazine will accept. 

 

Obviously, thr magazine isn't as fine as a thousandth of an inch, but as you ha e discovered, neither is your press or your bullets. 

 

Generally speaking, for a standard 9mm, I wouldn't load longer than 1.160.

 

NOW... I will also say that with the exception of FMJ, most bullet variation can be found in the nose, snd with coated bullets, the variation is even more pronounced. You are probably also using a seating anvil that seats off the ogive, which maximizes how much bullet variation shows up in OAL, but it minimizes how much variation shows up in seating depth, which is more important.  

 

Target 1.160, and don't sweat the variation.  DO everything Sarge described to maximize consistency, but don't sweat the variation. 

 

All that said, that is not the bullet I'd be using for 9mm major.  I wouldn't want the coating gunk in my comp, and I'd want a bullet that seats shallower.   You'd be better off with FMJ.   Lengthening OAL for a particular bullet lowers pressure, but it's not because the cartridge gets longer, it's because the bullet is seated shallower into the case.   In all probability, a typical FMJ-RN of the same weight at 1.14 seats shallower than that bullet at 1.17.

 

You are trying to load longer to lower pressure, but you've chosen a bullet that starts you at a deficit. That bullet seats deep. 

 

Food for thought. 

[Brooke]

16 hours ago, Sarge said:

To work all of this out takes patience and practice.

1. Make sure shell plate is not overly loose and sloppy. 

2. Sort brass by headstamp.

3. Use case lube.

4. Understand that any rounds coming off of a full shell plate will be different lengths than those coming from a partially empty plate.

5. Don’t pull the handle and measure one at a time. Keep the press moving at combat speed.

6. Start loading and set the first round off the press aside. Then pull the handle 20 times. Measure those 20 rounds and see what you get.

 

If you do all of the above that’s about as good as it gets. Micrometer dies are a waste of money for what we do and still don’t make a difference if you skip any of the above steps.

 

^^^

They will never be consistent if you don't sort by head stamp. All the other points are also valid.

[stick]

6 hours ago, IDescribe said:

Generally speaking, for a standard 9mm, I wouldn't load longer than 1.160.

Target 1.160, and don't sweat the variation.  DO everything Sarge described to maximize consistency, but don't sweat the variation. 

 

 

I load my 9mm rounds to 1.130 to 1.135 with mixed head stamps.  As long as you know what the maximum length your barrel will take,  and you stay under it, you'll be fine.  

[rooster]

Same thing happened to me, and it was driving me crazy.  I would get about .005+or- oal.  When I went to sorting by headstamp I cut it down to within .001, and most would be spot on.  Trouble is takes a lot of time and really not necessary for our game.

[RiggerJJ]

Agree, would not use coated bullets for a comped gun. Nor would I use an FMJ. In both cases you will be digging crap (either coating or lead) out of the comp in quick order.

Either CMJ or JHP...

[Bamaboy]

10 minutes ago, RiggerJJ said:

Agree, would not use coated bullets for a comped gun. Nor would I use an FMJ. In both cases you will be digging crap (either coating or lead) out of the comp in quick order.

Either CMJ or JHP...

I have shot over 1000 rounds of coated lead through this comp and cleaned it once. All you need is a butane torch and a carbon scrapper. Takes 15 minutes. And I shoot 1" groups at 25 yards free standing. I'll keep shooting my coated lead. 

[Bamaboy]

11 hours ago, IDescribe said:

9mm SAAMI spec is max OAL 1.169, and that's supposed to be the longest the magazine will accept. 

 

Obviously, thr magazine isn't as fine as a thousandth of an inch, but as you ha e discovered, neither is your press or your bullets. 

 

Generally speaking, for a standard 9mm, I wouldn't load longer than 1.160.

 

NOW... I will also say that with the exception of FMJ, most bullet variation can be found in the nose, snd with coated bullets, the variation is even more pronounced. You are probably also using a seating anvil that seats off the ogive, which maximizes how much bullet variation shows up in OAL, but it minimizes how much variation shows up in seating depth, which is more important.  

 

Target 1.160, and don't sweat the variation.  DO everything Sarge described to maximize consistency, but don't sweat the variation. 

 

All that said, that is not the bullet I'd be using for 9mm major.  I wouldn't want the coating gunk in my comp, and I'd want a bullet that seats shallower.   You'd be better off with FMJ.   Lengthening OAL for a particular bullet lowers pressure, but it's not because the cartridge gets longer, it's because the bullet is seated shallower into the case.   In all probability, a typical FMJ-RN of the same weight at 1.14 seats shallower than that bullet at 1.17.

 

You are trying to load longer to lower pressure, but you've chosen a bullet that starts you at a deficit. That bullet seats deep. 

 

Food for thought. 

I I loaded a 1.170 in my Glock 17 mags and it chambered. Also did it with a 1.178. Open guns perfer longer oal. And my BBI's haven't let me down yet. Follow me I'll post my chrono results when I can get to the range to chrono them

[RiggerJJ]

6 hours ago, Bamaboy said:

I have shot over 1000 rounds of coated lead through this comp and cleaned it once. All you need is a butane torch and a carbon scrapper. Takes 15 minutes. And I shoot 1" groups at 25 yards free standing. I'll keep shooting my coated lead. 

Have fun...

[PhillySoldier]

The projectiles are not exact. They have slightly different weights and shapes to them. If you weigh a hundred of them, I bet ya wind up with a bunch of different weight groups. The dillion die is seating by o-give and not the tip of the bullet. 

[lgh]

On 8/21/2018 at 10:53 AM, Sarge said:

To work all of this out takes patience and practice.

1. Make sure shell plate is not overly loose and sloppy. 

2. Sort brass by headstamp.

3. Use case lube.

4. Understand that any rounds coming off of a full shell plate will be different lengths than those coming from a partially empty plate.

5. Don’t pull the handle and measure one at a time. Keep the press moving at combat speed.

6. Start loading and set the first round off the press aside. Then pull the handle 20 times. Measure those 20 rounds and see what you get.

If oal is important, do what Sarge suggests. But like Philly said, the bullets themselves are not 100% uniform, vary mostly in the ogive part of the bullet, and the bullet can be seating off the ogive and not tip. You might want to measure 10 or 20 bullets - weight and length - to see how much variation there is. And be sure there is always a case in Station 1 when you are comparing oal. Station 1 stops the upward movement of the ram and if there is no case there then the upward movement will not be the same.

[lgh]

On 8/23/2018 at 8:30 AM, lgh said:

Station 1 stops the upward movement of the ram and if there is no case there then the upward movement will not be the same.

I did  not state that correctly. The re-sizing/decapping die in Station 1 is set at the top of the ram movement and is setting on top of the shell plate. If there is nothing in Station 1, the shell plate will have more wiggle in it. Obviously, this will have a greater effect if there is already a lot of wiggle in the shell plate. So get the wiggle out and always have a shell in Station 1. Dillon recommends always setting Die 1 first and having a shell in it when adjusting other dies.

[Sarge]

4 minutes ago, lgh said:

I did  not state that correctly. The re-sizing/decapping die in Station 1 is set at the top of the ram movement and is setting on top of the shell plate. If there is nothing in Station 1, the shell plate will have more wiggle in it. Obviously, this will have a greater effect if there is already a lot of wiggle in the shell plate. So get the wiggle out and always have a shell in Station 1. Dillon recommends always setting Die 1 first and having a shell in it when adjusting other dies.

And on the other side of the plate the seating die induced leverage as well. So, like I said you need a full shell plate to produce the most consistency 

[BentAero]

On 8/22/2018 at 11:22 AM, Bamaboy said:

I have shot over 1000 rounds of coated lead through this comp and cleaned it once. All you need is a butane torch and a carbon scrapper. Takes 15 minutes. And I shoot 1" groups at 25 yards free standing. I'll keep shooting my coated lead. 

Edumacate me about the torch. Do you heat the comp for a few seconds to soften the build-up then it scrapes out easier?

[zombywoof]

I did not like the Dillon 9mm seating die. I dumped it and installed my Hornady. Much happier.