Forgot Ear Protection

[lndshrk]

In a recent local IDPA Match, S.O. starts timer, I get six shots off and realize I did not move ear protection down from cap to cover ears. I stop, thinking it is a safety issue, S.O. says to keep going and finish, which I did.

Was told I had the ability with one hand to bring down ear protection. Confusion cost me a couple of seconds. Really don't see this issue addressed in IDPA rules.

Should I have been stopped followed by a reshoot, or was I just out of luck and learned something?

[Azone41]

You should have stopped and been given a reshoot. The SO (Safety Officer) should not let a competitor continue without ear protection it's unsafe for the shooter.

Just my take on it ( Don't shoot IDPA much)

[Precision40]

I couldn't find anything in the rulebook about a reshoot being mandatory, the only thing I can come up with is that one of the SO's responsibilities is to give the shooter the benefit of the doupt. If you honestly forgot your ears, then a reshoot is about the only thing to do.

One of the SO's other resposibilities is to treat the shooter with courtesy and respect, that's in the rulebook. If he allowed you to continue without your ears, even when you told him you did so, he was wrong.

There is no excuse for allowing a compeititor to continue shooting minus eye/ear protection.

[lynn jones]

always stop..hearing is more important than 'the game'

lynn

[Greg Jones]

The SO also has yet another responsibility (taken from the IDPA SO course):

• Prepare the Shooter

–Ensure that Shooter’s Equipment meets:

• Safety Minimum Requirements

• Conforms to IDPA Standards

(i.e. Holster & Mag. Carrier Position, Concealment Garment)–Check for Proper Eye & Ear Protection

If (as a SO) I failed to notice that the shooter did not have on ear protection, I would be inclined to grant a reshoot.

[Johnny Van Etta]

What about "Shooter ready"? What role do you think the competitor plays in this command?

JVE

[lndshrk]

I fully know this is IDPA and NOT IPSC, however the IPSC Rulebook specifies:

If a Range Official notices that a competitor has lost or displaced

their eye or ear protection during a course of fire, or has commenced

a course of fire without them, the Range Official must

immediately stop the competitor who will be required to reshoot

the course of fire after the protective devices have been restored.

Exactly what happened in this instance. My belief has always been IDPA takes a "kindler, gentler" {as in the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter} approach, and would have assumed a STOP and Reshoot would have been in order, especially since I cannot find a specific item in the IDPA Rulebook to deal with this particular issue.

[Ted Murphy]

Interesting Issue. I've stopped shooters after the beep when I noticed no ears, and I've had guys shoot with no ears and finish the stage. But I've not had this particular situation happen.

Technically, the rules do not cover it one way or another,though you can throw a few things out if you want to. Final decision would be by the MD.

At a local event I would be inclined to give the shooter a reshoot. Depends though, what else went on, etc. Big match, dunno. Probably have to decide if/when it happened.

Sitting in the peanut gallery waiting for my turn to shoot during a USPSA match, this guy was telling me that he felt this fella "lost" his ears shortly after realizing he was in the middle of trashing a field course in order to get a reshoot. Some thought it bad, some considered it a smart thing to have up your sleeves. Wonder if that is why the verbage is absent from the IDPA rulebook, so the MD can take it on a case by case basis without a hard and fast rule he must adhere to. Or they could have just overlooked the issue. I dunno.

It is smart for an SO to look for eyes and ears, but the responsiblity ulitimately resides with the shooter.

Ted

[Ted Murphy]

Ought to point out you should plug up when you shoot stages where you have to get out of cars. I've lost my ears a few times on the roof or door frame.

Ted

[lndshrk]

Thought you were there, as it was a get out of the truck, grab and drag stage. Local match, no biggie. Was shooting it fine, but without ear protection, and surprised no reshoot allowed.

[Sac Law Man]

Greg Jones hit the nail on the head in my opinion..

Hearing protection is a form of safety equipment and most if not all ranges make it mandatory that hearing and eye protection be worn at all times.

One responsibility of the S/O (lets not forget what the S stands for) is to ensure that the shooter is ready to proceed in a safe manner...

The shooter should of been given a re-shoot...

I would of stopped after the first shot..6 shots??? ouch

[Ted Murphy]

Again it is an interesting thread.

I have seen how a S0 Mistake will cause a reshoot that will be a gift from above from a shooter; the shooter blew the stage but a lost time on a scoresheet got him a reshoot which put him in the top 5 in his class. That really sucks in a competition as it was not the shooter's ability, but a dumb mistake by a scorekeeper that got him his trophy.

Could you imagine a guy trashing a stage, but right at the end he stops and says, "whoops, no ears"? He then gets a reshoot and burns it down. And as a result, the guy gets a top finish at the match. He essentially got a mulligan for being stupid and those actions cost better prepared shooters their trophies.

I know the big "S" word is here (safety) but from a competition standpoint, what I am talking about could be the consequence of a reshoot for forgetting ones ears. What if you lost a trophy because some shooter who was bsing so much he forgot to put his ears down got a reshoot? It is not out of the relm of possiblity, is it?

I thought the above would make for an interesting discussion so I am throwing it out there. It has been so slow here lately.

[MVZ]

Stop the shooter and reshoot. Safety must come first and is the RO's?SO's primary resposability

I thought IDPA wasnt about compitition???????

[Squishy]

Well said MVZ. Our jobs as RO's/ SO's is shooters safety. Stop the shooter and give him or her a reshoot. Not worth perment hearing damage.

[Mark Perez]

I have to agree with the re-shoot with the additional condition that the shooter be moved to the back of the squad .

until that day,

mp

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I will approach this from a different angle.

Shooter violated Section 4 of Safety rules

S 4.  Shock resistant eye protection and ear protection are required to be used by ANYONE at the range facility.

Stop and stage DQ for satety reason or at least a stop and score what has been shot. In any event, it is a rule violation. When it is observed, action must be taken to prevent injury.

No reshoot:

Under Competition rules:

C 11.  No shooter can re-shoot a stage or string for gun or “mental” malfunctions except when shooting the “Classifier” match for classification purposes.  If the classifier is part of a scored match, no re-shoots are permitted.  Re-shoots are allowed for stage equipment malfunctions or SO interference with the shooter.

Very specific wording on re-shoots. No room for interpretation there at all.

The reason I ask "Is the shooter ready" is not because it is something to say. I check the shooter and ask if he/she is ready. I check to make sure eyes and ears are protected but we all can miss something. It is the shooter's responsibility to report to the line ready to go and to know the rules.

Also at the end if you hear me say "If the shooter is SURE he is finished, unload and show clear" I suggest you scan because you missed something

Regards,

[Clay1]

The guy had the muffs on his head and didn't pull them down. Let the guy reshoot. Let's pretend the shooter is your 12 year old son. You want the kid going bang without the muffs on?

On changing the verbal commands that you give because you think that you like them better than what is written in the rule book. Please, just say the commands as they are in the rule book - please.

The "IF" stuff is USPSA and not IDPA.

Rick

Rick

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

The guy had the muffs on his head and didn't pull them down.  Let the guy reshoot.  Let's pretend the shooter is your 12 year old son.  You want the kid going bang without the muffs on? 

On changing the verbal commands that you give because you think that you like them better than what is written in the rule book.  Please, just say the commands as they are in the rule book - please. 

The "IF" stuff is USPSA and not IDPA. 

Rick

Rick

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you are saying you only follow the rule book on commands? Rule on Re-shoot was quoted above. You are choosing not to follow that.

As far as muffs on top of head, I think that would be seen but maybe not. either way the shooter should be stopped if they had started the course of fire.

As far as "the if stuff" sorry I didn't put the smiley face in. I just don't give robotic commands and as stated in the rules, I help the shooter as much as possible. If they went by an array they obviously need a little help.

To the original question asked in this thread, there are specific times per the rule book where you get a re-shoot. This is not one of them. Not wearing proper eye or ear protection is a "mental malfunction". Rule book specifically states re-shoot is not allowed.

Regards,

[Clay1]

Here is a partial list of the SO responsibilites:

Safety Officer (SO) Responsibilities.

1. Focus on the shooter’s firing hand and gun.

2. Remember that the shooter is always given the benefit of any doubt.

3. Run contestants through a course of fire safely and smoothly so that the shooter may enjoy the shooting experience.

4. Treat the shooter with courtesy and respect.

I think items 2, 3 and 4 would apply to this situation. It's not safe to let someone shoot without ears on and he should not have been allowed to start without them. Just my opinion that's all.

If you really want to know the answer, you could call HQ on Monday and ask them. Again, shooters DOES get the benefit of the doubt. Shooter should be shooting with safety equipment on. Treat all shooters with respect. Seems simple enough to me.

Rick

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Here is a partial list of the SO responsibilites:

Safety Officer (SO) Responsibilities.

1. Focus on the shooter’s firing hand and gun.

2. Remember that the shooter is always given the benefit of any doubt.

3. Run contestants through a course of fire safely and smoothly so that the shooter may enjoy the shooting experience.

4. Treat the shooter with courtesy and respect.

I think items 2, 3 and 4 would apply to this situation.  It's not safe to let someone shoot without ears on and he should not have been allowed to start without them.  Just my opinion that's all. 

If you really want to know the answer, you could call HQ on Monday and ask them.  Again, shooters DOES get the benefit of the doubt.  Shooter should be shooting with safety equipment on.  Treat all shooters with respect.  Seems simple enough to me.

Rick

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very good but where does it say he gets a re-shoot?

Shooter responsibilities (from the book)

1. ALWAYS follow the four laws of gun safety.

2. ALWAYS be conscious of muzzle direction.

3. Refrain from having finger in the trigger guard when not actually engaging targets.

4. Exhibit safe gun handling at all times.

5. Follow the rules in this book and any match-specific or range-specific rules.

6. Acquire and use IDPA legal equipment.

7. Obtain a valid classification and maintain it by shooting the classifier at least once every twelve (12) months (except master class shooters).

8. Assist in taping targets and picking up brass.

9. Be ready to shoot when called to the line (i.e., have appropriate ammo, concealment garment, etc.).

10. Be courteous and respectful to the match officials and other shooters.

11. In addition, have fun, socialize, learn and improve your gun handling and shooting skills.

I would guess 5 and 9 cover this also. As well as a stated rule on re-shoots quoted previously.

As far as HQ is concerned, there is no question in my mind as Mr Wilson has already made a stated policy on re-shoots in his book.

Regards,

[Azone41]

The IDPA rules really do not apply (Its only a game) if the range has a safety rule about ear and eye protection. I was shooting a stage about 23 weeks ago where you had to pick up a dummy and carry it to the end of the stage when I threw it over my shoulder my ears came off, I stopped and was given a reshoot

[Azone41]

Should have said 2 or 3 weeks ago

[lndshrk]

Might as well add:

The entire outcome of this incident was that I had a couple of extra seconds added to my time because I did complete the COF after motioning to my left ear, being told by the SO to continue, without my ears on. Further was told by the SO that I could have adjusted my ears during the COF.

I have enormous respect for the SO who made the call, did not argue with it, accepted it and went on to shoot the rest of the match. Had a great day!

Having attended many matches, I know that if a DQ was given to everyone who removed their ears during a match (to refresh ones ears & hear time and scoring called), no one would be left to shoot the match. Do not feel this rises to the level of a DQ'able event.

Not sure failure to drop ears = "mental malfunction".

I am an IDPA SO (also USPSA SO and NRA SO) and still am unsure if I should have been stopped and given a reshoot. However, certain that if I was running a shooter, I would have stopped that person and offered a reshoot.

I accept this as somewhat vague in the IDPA Rulebook, and until it was addressed in specific verbiage (as in the USPSA Rules) would yield to whatever the local climate was on how the rulebook is applied.

If it were a major - state, regional, or National Match, I am sure the MD could have to address it and if it were a "gamer" tactic, a FTDR would be given.

This was a simple oversight that was compounded by the fact that the SO didn't catch it also, but clearly the shooter's (MY) responsibility.

Still had a great match!

[freeidaho]

Here is an alternative thought;

If it wasn't important enough to the shooter to stop and pull down his muffs, then why should it be important enough to the SO to give a reshoot?

The shooter already made the decision that his hearing was not important, when he did not immediately fix the problem. That is, the shooter chose a better score over hearing.

I find it interesting that the SO is being picked apart for ignoring the hearing issue, but not the shooter. Y'all are funny.

If I were the SO I'd feel bad for not catching it. Just like I feel bad for not catching a partially inserted mag, or empty chamber.

Un-even enforcement of the rules is the bain of IDPA.

Ken Reed

"You are what you do."

[Clay1]

"If I were the SO I'd feel bad for not catching it. Just like I feel bad for not catching a partially inserted mag, or empty chamber.

Un-even enforcement of the rules is the bain of IDPA. "

Is it the SO job to catch a partially inserted mag or empty chamber?

Happen to agree with you on the uneven enforcement of the rules in IDPA.