Marine Corps moves to adopt M17/M18

[Rudukai13]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/03/16/marine-corps-adopt-modular-handgun-system/

It was really only a matter of time before the rest of the military followed the Army's lead... 

What do we think of this? With more and more agencies/organizations adopting variants of the P320 lately, will this lead to increased aftermarket support from third party companies? I would tend to think so. 

Seems like I picked the perfect timing to purchase my new X-Carry 

Edited March 17, 2018 by Rudukai13

[michael.flitcraft]

With reports of having trouble with fmj ammo, I’m a bit shocked.

[Rudukai13]

Quoted from another thread for my thoughts on reported technical issues:

 

Yup, and the Beretta M9 didn't exactly perform flawlessly when it was first adopted either: https://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/true_story_m9.htm

 

There are teething issues with every new platform. They'll fix it. And as far as I'm aware the many production variants for the civilian market are fairly rock-solid pistols, now that the drop safety issue has been addressed.

 

As for this report; 1. Doesn't surprise me, and 2. Doesn't change my intention to purchase a P320 very soon [which I did end up getting a couple of weeks ago]

[Daemunx1]

23 hours ago, michael.flitcraft said:

With reports of having trouble with fmj ammo, I’m a bit shocked.

What reports? I’ve put about 1k rounds of nothing but fmj and I’ve had one (user induced) failure to feed. 

[PatrickDoyle]

I would like that info too....

 

 

pat

[Rudukai13]

https://taskandpurpose.com/modular-handgun-system-army-response/

 

This article details the reported issues and the Army/Sig's response. Basically, all the issues were either shooter error from poor grip, or have already been fixed;

 

"But what the DOT&E report didn’t reveal, officials say, is that the Sig Sauer and the Army both corrected the issues through a number of upgrades to the original P320."

Edited March 18, 2018 by Rudukai13

[Daemunx1]

Nothing in there about fmj. I think the whole drop safety issue was massively over blown. Probably largely by people annoyed by the thought of a polymer, strike fired service pistol. 

Edited March 18, 2018 by Daemunx1

[Rudukai13]

6 minutes ago, Daemunx1 said:

Nothing in there about fmj. I think the whole drop safety issue was massively over blown. Probably largely by people annoyed by the thought of a polymer, strike fired service pistol. 

 

Or by people annoyed at the thought of a polymer striker-fired service pistol that didn't say "Glock" on the side...

[Sig0431]

I am still in the Marines and the Beretta is FAR from flawless. I am so happy the Marine Corps decided to evolve with modern times. We are typically the last to adapt new tech but a lot of that has to deal with our limited funding compared to the rest of the DOD. 

[RJH]

2 hours ago, Daemunx1 said:

 I think the whole drop safety issue was massively over blown. Probably largely by people annoyed by the thought of a polymer, strike fired service pistol. 

 

Only by the people who got shot.  It was definitely an issue.

 

That said I have no dog in this fight, but have recently seen a few Sig 320s with light strike issues.  This was stock guns with stock ammo.  After one match a guy that was shooting one with the light strike issues was ready to sell cheap. He was glad to find the issue in a match though, as It was going to be his carry gun

[Daemunx1]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

 

Only by the people who got shot.  It was definitely an issue.

 

That said I have no dog in this fight, but have recently seen a few Sig 320s with light strike issues.  This was stock guns with stock ammo.  After one match a guy that was shooting one with the light strike issues was ready to sell cheap. He was glad to find the issue in a match though, as It was going to be his carry gun

All one of him? A case which from all I can find hasnt been concluded and based on sigs investigation had something to do with the ammo being used. Ofc they arent likely to just roll over and say “our bad” but none the less facts are the 320 had passed all required drop tests before hand. If you wanna start hitting things with hammers then youre hardly being realistic. Its like the youtube bozos who launch pistols out of catapults and throw them at steel plates to test “durability.”

[RJH]

 

17 minutes ago, Daemunx1 said:

All one of him? A case which from all I can find hasnt been concluded and based on sigs investigation had something to do with the ammo being used. Ofc they arent likely to just roll over and say “our bad” but none the less facts are the 320 had passed all required drop tests before hand. If you wanna start hitting things with hammers then youre hardly being realistic. Its like the youtube bozos who launch pistols out of catapults and throw them at steel plates to test “durability.”

 

If there was no issue then there wouldn't be a trigger "upgrade" to keep the gun from going off when dropped.  The fact is that getting the guns to drop the striker has been replicated several times in controlled environments.  How many other guns tend to go when dropped, pretty much none of modern design.  I am sure they will get it worked out, but saying that it was not an issue seems like self imposed ignorance, and I am not trying to be a jackass there.  I do agree that it passed the army's drop test, but every gun the army adopts ends up needing flaws worked out, hell just about every gun made seem to have some teething issues that get fleshed out after a while. 

[Rudukai13]

I'm not saying the drop safety issue wasn't a serious issue or that even one person being injured by an accidental discharge due to a design flaw isn't a serious occurrence. It does appear to me however that Sig acted quickly and honorably when the issue came to light, quickly initiating the voluntary upgrade program at no expense to current owners and stopping production to implement the mechanical fix into all future samples.

 

All new platforms will have teething issues, particularly considering this was the first true striker-fired platform from this company, a relatively large departure from what they've been doing for decades. The way a company responds when those issues come up is what influences my opinions more than the issue itself, and Sig's handling of it reflected well on their values and commitment to making sure their products are safe for consumers

[Daemunx1]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

 

 

If there was no issue then there wouldn't be a trigger "upgrade" to keep the gun from going off when dropped.  The fact is that getting the guns to drop the striker has been replicated several times in controlled environments.  How many other guns tend to go when dropped, pretty much none of modern design.  I am sure they will get it worked out, but saying that it was not an issue seems like self imposed ignorance, and I am not trying to be a jackass there.  I do agree that it passed the army's drop test, but every gun the army adopts ends up needing flaws worked out, hell just about every gun made seem to have some teething issues that get fleshed out after a while. 

No one said there was no issue. I said I believe it to have been blown out of proportion. There are some ppl still act as if its still an issue when in fact it was addressed a long time ago and thanks to the way the rumor mill works things like the aforementioned "trouble with fmj" come into existence that were never even an issue to begin with so far as I've seen referenced. I only referenced "all one of him" in response to "Only by the people who got shot" which while probably not intentional was a bit of an exaggeration.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Daemunx1

[Rudukai13]

Another article on the DoD report does mention issues with FMJ;

 

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2018/02/01/the-army-is-working-to-fix-flaws-in-its-new-handgun-after-critical-dod-report/

 

"A higher number of stoppages experienced by shooters with both the XM17 and XM18 handguns when fired with ball ammunition as compared to the special purpose [JHP] ammunition."

 

Another important point to make from that same article;

 

"PEO-Soldier spokeswoman Debra Dawson emphasized in an email response that the currently fielded MHS pistols “meet all safety and operational requirements.”"

 

I take that to mean they figured the issues out well enough for it to be issued to troops

Edited March 19, 2018 by Rudukai13

[Rudukai13]

Also of important note from the same article;

 

"During the Army Times visit to Fort Campbell, Kentucky, soldiers overwhelmingly preferred the weapon over its three-decades-old predecessor, the Beretta M9."

[Daemunx1]

I wonder how many of those issues with old ball ammo were due to using ammo loaded  20 years ago  I would hope they used fresh ammo for testing but I know when I was in the service finding really old rounds was hardly uncommon. As for the ejection issue, how in the world do you even eject 2 rounds at once? That must have been some early design issue fixed a long time ago.

[Rudukai13]

The MHS program did put emphasis on the "System" requirement, as each pistol manufacturer partnered with an ammunition manufacturer to submit a JHP (XM1153 Special Purpose) round as well as a FMJ (XM1152 Improved Ball) round, as detailed in this article;

 

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/10/24/m17-mhs-food-us-armys-xm1153-special-purpose-9mm-round-unveiled-winchester-ausa-2017/

 

"Also present at Winchester’s booth was the XM1152 improved ball round, which externally appears to be a simple flat-nosed FMJ. This suggests it may be a variant of Winchester’s 147gr Super Unleaded encapsulated FMJ round, which lacks any exposed lead base, instead being clad all around with a gilding metal jacket. It seems likely to me that the XM1152 has a different weight bullet, however, likely 115-130 grains rather than 147."

 

It stands to reason that the testing done with the XM17/18 pistols mainly took place utilizing the Winchester-provided FMJ and JHP rounds, which begs the question - I wonder how the Winchester XM1152 FMJ round would function in another pistol? Is the issue with the pistol, or the round...?

[Nathanb]

The modularity makes this thing a winner for the military where pistols are reissued countless times. 

[Rudukai13]

On 3/19/2018 at 12:16 PM, Nathanb said:

The modularity makes this thing a winner for the military where pistols are reissued countless times. 

 

It should also help homogenize a singular platform across a broad spectrum of units/purposes. Rather than having certain units with a Beretta, while others use a Colt 1911, with others using Glock 19s and still others using whatever other random platforms have filled a very specific niche, this platform can easily be changed/reconfigured to fit any mission criteria. Need a standard-issue pistol for regular boots on the ground (previously fulfilled by Beretta M9)? Full size slide and frame (M17) it is. Need a more concealable but still generally combat-sized pistol (previously fulfilled by Glock 19)? Compact slide and frame (M18) for you.

 

Not only that, but should certain units have a need for even more specialized configurations, development and implementation of mission-specific components that work with the standard FCU module can happen quickly and seamlessly, just like has been the case with the M4/M16 platform for decades now. For example - Some super-double-ultra-secret unit needs a subcompact pistol for deep concealment missions? There's a slide and grip module for that, and it already works with the core architecture of the pistol they're already carrying.

 

I truly predict we will start seeing just as many configurations for this pistol built around the core architecture of the FCU as we've seen variants of the M4/M16/AR architecture

[Rudukai13]

http://soldiersystems.net/2018/03/23/2018-usasoc-sniper-comp-sig-mhs-enhancements/

 

Evidently Sig has been making a concerted effort to encourage the military to truly utilize the modularity of the MHS platform, showing off various combinations of components that the M17/M18 can utilize. The pictures in the article appear to show an M18 slide with the new Romeo 1T shielded optic as well as an FDE X-Series grip module and magwell

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by Rudukai13

[Low_Speed]

 
Only by the people who got shot.  It was definitely an issue.
 
That said I have no dog in this fight, but have recently seen a few Sig 320s with light strike issues.  This was stock guns with stock ammo.  After one match a guy that was shooting one with the light strike issues was ready to sell cheap. He was glad to find the issue in a match though, as It was going to be his carry gun

Who and how many people got shot? Please provide information. I have yet to see any information on this. You see a lot of this in Sig Talk. Most of it is conjecture.

Usually, light primer strikes are caused by bad/defective ammo.


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[Low_Speed]

 
 
If there was no issue then there wouldn't be a trigger "upgrade" to keep the gun from going off when dropped.  The fact is that getting the guns to drop the striker has been replicated several times in controlled environments.  How many other guns tend to go when dropped, pretty much none of modern design.  I am sure they will get it worked out, but saying that it was not an issue seems like self imposed ignorance, and I am not trying to be a jackass there.  I do agree that it passed the army's drop test, but every gun the army adopts ends up needing flaws worked out, hell just about every gun made seem to have some teething issues that get fleshed out after a while. 

You forgot the important word “voluntary” which means if you haven’t had a problem and don’t think it’s a problem then you don’t have to do the upgrade.
Yeah, it sounds like you’re trying to be a jackass and succeeding.

Look, the gun has been in the public’s hands for what? 5 years now and it’s had one possible issue that no one can truly confirm.



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[Low_Speed]

Another article on the DoD report does mention issues with FMJ;
 
https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2018/02/01/the-army-is-working-to-fix-flaws-in-its-new-handgun-after-critical-dod-report/
 
"A higher number of stoppages experienced by shooters with both the XM17 and XM18 handguns when fired with ball ammunition as compared to the special purpose [JHP] ammunition."
 
Another important point to make from that same article;
 
"PEO-Soldier spokeswoman Debra Dawson emphasized in an email response that the currently fielded MHS pistols “meet all safety and operational requirements.”"
 
I take that to mean they figured the issues out well enough for it to be issued to troops

The problem was with the ammo. Not the gun. They were making custom ammo for the service pistol.


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[Rudukai13]

5 minutes ago, Low_Speed said:

The problem was with the ammo. Not the gun. They were making custom ammo for the service pistol.


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Which is exactly the point I raised as well a few more posts further down, reposted here for clarity;

 

"It stands to reason that the testing done with the XM17/18 pistols mainly took place utilizing the Winchester-provided FMJ and JHP rounds, which begs the question - I wonder how the Winchester XM1152 FMJ round would function in another pistol? Is the issue with the pistol, or the round...?"