Match Performance

[mcoliver]

I've been using past matches to gauge my performance. Recently, I just decided to go all out and "improve" on my splits. I'm dropping points more than ever but I'm turning out HF's 2-3 notches up (sometimes even as much as 5! ).

Is that improvement?

[Matt Cheely]

I suppose it is an improvement per se. But I'm still going for points rather than speed at the moment.

After all, the name of the game is High Hit Factor.

I still feel better about my shooting when the RO walks around yelling "two alpha" rather than having a slightly faster time.

So keep it up, and just start shooting more A's at the same time.

[kevin c]

Shoot A's, fast...

[Jasonub]

i noticed that i can shoot d's and c's as fast as all a's. thus i decided to shoot a's

[Flyin40]

I think its a big improvement. Not that your dropping more points but your realizing that you can shoot faster but now you just need to see faster. Now you just have to practice at that speed and above so your used to it and you won't drop as many points.

How do you practice????

I have had this discussion with several expierenced shooters and some agreed and others disagreed.

I think too many people are so focused on shooting A's it kills their overall game.

I'm a firm believer that to be able to shoot A's fast you have to practice that way.

I practice at speeds above my ability, sometimes way above my ability to hit A's in order to get better at shooting fast. Look at it this way, how will you ever get used to shooting A's as fast as you can unless you practice that way. Its something that won't happen overnight but if you practice this way improvements come alot quicker. I feel you have to push that threshold in order to get past it and improve.

Does a quarterback practice at 50% and expect to go to a game and perform at 100%???

Same with a baseball pitcher. They work on throwing balls hard and fast in practice so they learn how to control that speed. Thats why the pros don't mind taking a out of control pitcher thats has blistering speed. They always say, we can teach him the control without losing speed.

You can always back off in match some but still end up being alot faster than you originally was. I just recently just started treating matches like matches and quit treating them like practice. I wasn't worried about how I finished as much as I was worried about learning new things about my shooting. Though in matches I never try to go fast. I just shoot matches, I don't worry about speed at all. Thats what practice is for.

Some people say you have to learn to shoot A's then learn to go fast. So lets say you are shooting all A's and now want to "SPEED UP" your game. Now you have to relearn everything over again but at a faster speed. Recoil, timing, transitions etc etc.

Your end goal should be to shoot A's as fast as possible and for me the easiest and quickest way to that goal is to practice at where I want to be and get better at seeing everything faster at that top speed. It takes alot of practice, both live fire and dryfire. I see this yrs work paying off next yr though I have made huge improvements this yr alone.

Flyin40

[Jake Di Vita]

Points are what wins matches.

If you don't believe me. Max at nats probably dropped a total of 25 points on the last 12 stages.

Increasing speed at the cost of points is not the way to do it. It is great that you are seeing an improvement, but you are getting away from the point a bit.

The whole point of this game is to hit the target as quickly as possible.

The target is the A box.

Flyin40,

Remember this also. Every C you shoot in practice will be a D in a match. Every D you shoot in practice will be a miss or no shoot in the match. I promise you top shooters NEVER shoot close to 100% of their capability...that is why they win. If you want to go out and shoot as fast as you can and accept any hits go ahead, I promise you will regret it later though.

[Flyin40]

Jake,

Then we agree, you just repeated my whole post. I said the same thing.

The idea is to PRACTICE fast, and back off in the match but the end result is that you will be faster and more in control than if you practice slow.

I stated the goal is to shoot A's as fast as possible. To reach that goal requires you too practice at and above your threshold in order get make improvements.

Flyin40

[Flyin40]

We all know though sometimes forget the goal is shooting A's as fast as possible.

So I guess my question then would be how to you get to that point. Do you give up points while learning speed in order to gain pts and speed in the long run???

McColiver my question to you would be since you decided to go all out were you focused soley on speed or shooting A's as fast as possible???

Its very easy to get caught up in shooting fast and getting bad hits. You have to constantly remind and focus yourself that you have to shoot A's fast.

How does everyone go about this???

Flyin40

[Clay1]

For the last couple of months I have been trying to shoot above my ability level and faster than I can see. I have really tanked some qualifiers. Today at the match I walked up and said forget the time, hit these targets. I on purpose slowed down, felt like I was slower but shot the points. Finished with my highest classifer for the year. Nothing to brag about compared to most shooters here, but for ME, it was the highest classifier shot. That spoke volumes to myself.

On another note. Matches are won by points, but classifiers are not by points but rather HF. You don't want your classification to be out of line with your match scores though. Just something to think about.

Rick

[mcoliver]

McColiver my question to you would be since you decided to go all out were you focused soley on speed or shooting A's as fast as possible???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't really know how to describe it but I just wanted the gun to "shoot faster" and try to keep up my vision with what's happening. The process all happens so fast that there's no way for me to evaluate what's happening when it's happening. I'm using recent footages of videos of me shooting the matches as post-evaluation of what I did.

Now I'm noticing (in the video) that I'm doing make-up shots yet I don't even remember why. And I'm happy to say, I've only been doing this recently but my points have improved...a lot!

Unfortunately, I'm going on a trip and there won't be any shooting for me for a month. Dang, just when things are starting to get interesting...sigh...

[mcoliver]

One more thing. I think it was Steve who mentioned it some months (years?) back about his dry fire splits being slower than his live fire.

I finally understand it.

[XRe]

FWIW, I've noticed this progression in my shooting. I've gotten to a point where I simply wasn't moving fast enough - and was working on a bunch of new stuff at that time. I started outrunning what I could see - I was doing better in matches, but hitting a lot of Ds and taking penalties. With some practice, the speed stayed, but I started seeing what was going on - possibly for real for the first time - and gained patience to see the right sight picture at that speed. I also learned a lot about what constitutes an acceptable sight picture...

I feel like, now, I'm stuck in that zone a little bit, as I pick the game back up again. I've not been able to do any live fire practice (except shooting some groups), and have shot two matches. Tough to recover those skills w/ that level of practice! Getting better each time, though...

[Flexmoney]

Some shoot accurate, but not with speed.

Some shoot with speed, but not with accuracy.

Eventually, you will need both...to compete at the top. And, don't think that this doesn't apply to you...or, you....or, you. Anybody that decides to be competitive can be so.

If I were teaching someone to be speedy, or accurate, I would try to get the message to them that a fast/slow mindset is not the place to be in to achieve the goal (either goal, fast, or accurate).

There are fundamentals of efficiency that can be learned. What we need, is to be in a midset that allows us to recognize..and learn.

[Flyin40]

For the last couple of months I have been trying to shoot above my ability level and faster than I can see.

Rick

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do this in practice and then back off some in the match. You end up being faster and more in control.

Say you practice at 75% and are able to shoot all A's then go to the match and shoot at 75% and shoot all A's. Sounds good right??

Say you practice at 75% and shoot all A's then go to a match and shoot at 90-100%. You going to get misses and no shoots plus alot of D's. Your shooting at a speed your not used too.

Say you practice at 98-!05% and have misses, no shoots etc and then in the match you back it off to 85%. Your still 10% above your earlier speed and it will feel like your going slow. This won't happen overnight and may take months to get an idea of how it feels and learn how to see faster. You can even practice at 85% speed and back off to 80% in the match. Practing this way your going to have alot of problems in the beginning in practice with misses and no shoots but the goal is to get better and not make those mistakes.

Don't get me wrong, I know pts win matches but you have to get to the point where you have speed and pts.

Flyin40

[BSeevers]

Hmm You can speed up and win a few local matches but after a while you learn its speed and accuracy at the big ones. Depending on local competition, that can apply locally also.

Speed is not "only hitting a couple no shoots or misses for the whole match" either if you get my drift.

[kevin c]

I'm a middle of the pack B Limited shooter. I usually finish at between 60 and 70 percent of the top limited shooter's score. My time is usually the difference - the points are close.

Yesterday I let it all hang out at a club match. On two stages my time was the within a half second or so of the top Open shooter. The other three I was status quo.

The result? I finished right where I usually finish - 60 to 70 percent, on all the stages. On my two hair-on-fire stages, I had two mikes, five D's, a couple extra shots thrown on targets (because I literally didn't see what I shot), and three inadvertent B zone hits from going faster than I could see.

Speed isn't everything...

[hdgun]

OK, Glad we are talking about match performance. I live fire practice at least once a week, sometimes as much as three times. When i practice I am always shooting for A hits and let speed be a natural factor. So far it's been pretty good. Practice will consist of, A few bill drills to get warmed up. Targets at differant distances 7-25yrds, moving across the range shooing on the move, reload drills IE: shoot 2 reload shoot 2. and the list goes on.

Practice usually has a great out come. Shooting majority of of A hits. Any way, come match day it seams like a big hole in my head opens up and every thing I have practiced just rolls out!!!! everything just turns to shit!!!!

Match day will concist of poor times, bad hits, no shoots and misses. Last match (Sunday) was probably the worst match of my life.

It is not like I am a newbie. I just got my A card in open. and I have been a B in limited for a while now.

Need some big advise for a big problem!!!!!!! John

[vluc]

hdgun, we all shoot for different reasons. Do you know what you shoot for at matches versus what you shoot for at practice?

[Jake Di Vita]

Buy and read With Winning in Mind, and The Inner Game of Tennis.

[Shooter Grrl]

Points are what wins matches.

If you don't believe me. Max at nats probably dropped a total of 25 points on the last 12 stages.

Increasing speed at the cost of points is not the way to do it. It is great that you are seeing an improvement, but you are getting away from the point a bit.

Jake honey, you are flat ass wrong, and I have the proof of it now....

1 JF A Open 59 10 5.86 8.3618 70.0000 100.00%

2 KL B Open 57 0 7.08 8.0508 67.3965 96.28%

Points are good, but speed is better! There is around a second difference and JF won by going faster and sloppier.

I'm still flummoxed by this btw. All my shooting career I've been told that penalty free is good - not in this case!!!! Also, where did I get a miss = 3 seconds from? That person lied to me too!!!!

[XRe]

Points are good, but speed is better! There is around a second difference on both of these, and JF won by going faster and sloppier.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Put 10 GMs in that match, and see if the perspective doesn't change

[Jake Di Vita]

Ummm I fail to see the point?

It looks to me like he shot better points faster than you? How does that make me wrong if he just flat outshot you on a stage?

Points are what wins matches....I know because I have both won matches and lost matches solely because of points. Look at the Georgia match results by stage. I was posting some pretty impressive scores...on several stages I had the fastest time, but lost because I shot sloppy points.

And the biggest example of this....Stage 7 at that match. a 14 hit factor stage that Max won because of points.

I don't think that can be argued with.

[Loves2Shoot]

Points are what wins matches.

If you don't believe me. Max at nats probably dropped a total of 25 points on the last 12 stages.

Increasing speed at the cost of points is not the way to do it. It is great that you are seeing an improvement, but you are getting away from the point a bit.

Jake honey, you are flat ass wrong, and I have the proof of it now....

1 JF A Open 59 10 5.86 8.3618 70.0000 100.00%

2 KL B Open 57 0 7.08 8.0508 67.3965 96.28%

Points are good, but speed is better! There is around a second difference and JF won by going faster and sloppier.

I'm still flummoxed by this btw. All my shooting career I've been told that penalty free is good - not in this case!!!! Also, where did I get a miss = 3 seconds from? That person lied to me too!!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The biggest problem with this anaylsis is that is doesn't account for one thing. Once you get to the top everyone can run the stage at the same speed (pretty much) because it takes a certain amount of time to do things. On your way to the top, you may me able to get closer, but as for overall improvement, you must be ultra accurate, while elimnating hesitation and aquiring "snapshots" of each shot in your vision. There are some stages you can sacrifice points for speed, but as a theory in shooting, saving time by dropping points isn't something I would feel good about recommending for anyone. There really does become a point where you can not shoot faster than you can see, and poor shooting is the result of lack of proper focus. Once you start sacrificing points for "speed" it is much harder to "get back" the points in my experience.

[Shooter Grrl]

Okay, first of all, I don't give a rats a$$ about the guys at the top. I'm talking about MY performance against this shooter at this match and trying to figure out how he won the stage by shooting 1 second faster with a MISS!

Jake, he did not shoot more points - notice the 10 POINT PENALTY!

This is not the first time that someone ran a stage ONE SECOND faster than I did, but had a miss, and still came out on top. Someone somewhere HAS to be able to help me understand this. I'm at the point now where it's pretty durned important

[ong45]

Shooter Grrl Posted Today, 11:55 AM

  Okay, first of all, I don't give a rats a$$ about the guys at the top. I'm talking about MY performance against this shooter at this match and trying to figure out how he won the stage by shooting 1 second faster with a MISS!

I think what Scott was trying to say is that for any given level of skill ( or class of shooter) the rule still holds true, points will win out.

Have you considered that this guy might just be that much better ? If grauffel had shot the same time with one mike would you feel the same?

Another thing to point out is that your adversary appears to have actually shot more points than you before the penalty, was this penalty a miss ? If it was, he did not get the 5 or so points and still got 59 for the stage.

I can think of situations where dropping points gets you ahead and these usually involve taking an extremly risky shot and giving up some points to save going to another position. Even here though most people end up "outsmarting" themselves and rarely works out.

James