Production Lowering The Hammer W/o Decocker

[jkushner1]

SInce most of the matches we shoot are usually on the club level, I find that the lack of rule knowledge on an RO's part is the most prevelant here. Anyway, we have addressed the rules in other threads and debated the IPSC and USPSA rules and regs. Now I have a question about method and etiquette. I do carry a copy of the latest USPSA rules in my bag, but that can be a good distance from the line and to unload, walk to my bag get the rules for someone who is already subconcioussly taking a stance "against" is a major waste of time.

My CZ 85 Combat does not have a decocker, it also doesnt have a firing pin safety (intentional design for trigger quality purposes) and as we know rule 8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked calls for the hammer to rest on the firing pin.

Okay, enough preamble, here is my gripe, I dont like to be rude, and luckily I have not had to thus far, but I sure do face a lot of questioning whether the rules permit a manual decock, and as I always tell them they do permit this action - but these people are still uncomfortable - you can see and feel it.

My recommendation is that the USPSA do broadcast emails to RO's but especially newer RO's, and provide Rule refreshers on a regular basis.

Why should I have to be distracted by an RO who is clearly not in tune with the rules looking over my shoulder with that "I'm not sure what your doing is legal" look or the guy that thinks he is doing you a favor by letting the manual decock slide just this time.

When will these guys learn the rules specifific to my division. Lowering the hammer manually is not a priveledge bestowed on me by a new and benevolent RO, its a riule and therefore should not even be questioned.

All right I'm signing out, but whoever is tuned in from Sedro Woolley and is reading this, please come up with a way to get these RO's trained, as in any other sport of precision, even a little distraction can mean the difference between exceptional and mediocre.

Thanks,

Jon

[GeorgeInNePa]

Jon,

I'd just turn my head, look him/her right in the eye and ask, "Well then, how do YOU propose I de-cock it?" Then I'd laugh my evil laugh and assume the start position.

If they give you a real hard time over it, unload and show clear and tell them to get the RM or match director to explain the rules to their dumbass.

[eerw]

Jon..

I have yet to run into an RO that will debate me on whether I can decock my gun...

some have said..that makes them nervous..I tell them if it goes off, I'm done for the day..they kind of laugh and I get back to my routine..

[Ben Stoeger]

George you seem to enjoy this stuff...

[Flexmoney]

Usually, the RO's are just volunteers...doing the best they can.

Maybe this could be an opportunity to help them understand the workings of your particular gun?

[bobert1]

Thank You Flex !!!!

Yes I am a new RO. I have been getting my feet wet at various local Club Matches, where would you suggest? I have even worked my first Big Match, The Ohio Sectional. I took my RO class from a very knowledgeable Gary Stevens. Memorizing the book is not part of the course. How to use and find the correct rule for the situation was a big part of the course. We were taught the spirit of the book. So many of the rules are not completely clear. I saw an RM discussing rule interpretation with a CRO at the Ohio Sectional. So how is an RO supposed to know it all? In our class no discussion of all the various guns happened. NO, I don't know how, or ever will know how every gun works. I look forward to refining my RO abilities and hope that all of the experienced shooters I get to RO will pass on their knowledge and not be so full of themselves to be bothered.

[Vlad]

This is a specific and kinda rare problem. All of us CZ shooters have seen it at some point or another. I take the oportunity to explain to the RO's the rules every time one has a problem.

[Gary Stevens]

I view this as part of the "Load and make ready" process. The shooter has to get the gun into the correct condition or the RO can not start the course. A little common sense has to be applied in some of these situations. The responsibility of doing it obviously rest on the shooter. A slip on their part is an early exit for the day unfortunately.

My thoughts are "Gun down range, do what you have to do, and holster". Let the games begin

Gary

[David Olhasso]

Speaking as the RO who ran you 5 times this past weekend -- Just do it.

There is no need to turn & tell the RO that you are manually dropping the hammer. Just load you gun, hold the hammer w/ your weak hand, pull the trigger, lower the hammer, & holster your gun.

If the RO has a problem with it, then you and him can talk about it with your gun safetly in your holster.

[jkushner1]

Agreed - Thanks Dave.

[eerw]

Speaking as the RO who ran you 5 times this past weekend -- Just do it.

There is no need to turn & tell the RO that you are manually dropping the hammer.  Just load you gun, hold the hammer w/ your weak hand, pull the trigger, lower the hammer, & holster your gun. 

If the RO has a problem with it, then you and him can talk about it with your gun safetly in your holster.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is the best way...no need for any unnecessary distractions when you are in the process of lowering your hammer..

[jkushner1]

Thank You Flex !!!!

Yes I am a new RO. I have been getting my feet wet at various local Club Matches, where would you suggest? I have even worked my first Big Match, The Ohio Sectional. I took my RO class from a very knowledgeable Gary Stevens. Memorizing the book is not part of the course. How to use and find the correct rule for the situation was a big part of the course. We were taught the spirit of the book. So many of the rules are not completely clear. I saw an RM discussing rule interpretation with a CRO at the Ohio Sectional. So how is an RO supposed to know it all? In our class no discussion of all the various guns happened. NO, I don't know how, or ever will know how every gun works. I look forward to refining my RO abilities and hope that all of the experienced shooters I get to RO will pass on their knowledge and not be so full of themselves to be bothered.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As most people who shoot with me can tell you I am not full of myself. I'm not that good to be full of myself. I also go out of my way to try and be friendly to people and to learn from the better shooters, or any shooter for that matter, For me the fastest most effective way to improvement is 110% concentration on my strategy for the stage at hand, and as you know these can be complicated. Maybe, I just need to shrug these comments made at the line off and not let them effect my concentration - I think as I improve, I will be become better at just zoning in and shutting off any disctrations around me.

Thanks,

Jon

[mcoliver]

The full effect of the coffee hasn't hit me yet so please excuse my question. You guys are talking about manually lowering the hammer when asked to LAMR in prod, right?

[ALBY]

I RO'd at summerblast this past weekend and I only had one shooter out of at least 150 I ran that had to manually decock.

so, the obvious answer here is that you need to get an STI or a glock.

j/k

[stingerjg]

I RO'd at summerblast this past weekend and I only had one shooter out of at least 150 I ran that had to manually decock.

so, the obvious answer here is that you need to get an STI or a glock.

j/k

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

to my knowlege there are very few guns that do not have a decock feature. CZ being one of them (main gun discussed in this thread). I ROed A3 a few weekends ago, when the CZ 'super squad' came up to shoot i already knew that they would be manualy dropping the hammer on LAMR command. Most of them, Matthew Mink, did it so fast that most RO's wouldnt notice what was going on.

STI dosent make a production gun.

Edited July 14, 2005 by stingerjg

[Carlos]

Alby wrote: "I RO'd at summerblast this past weekend and I only had one shooter out of at least 150 I ran that had to manually decock. "

If it was the Summerblast, then the shooter must have been Production Grand Master Todd Sindelar from Team CZ-USA; current gun: the CZ SP-01.

As for decockers, they are mechanical devices. Every mechanical device can & will eventually fail. Therefore, the use of de-cockers should be prohibited by USPSA or classified as "unsafe gun handling" (no, I am not seriously suggesting such a rule change, but you get the point). Nothing wrong with manually de-cocking a gun; do you trust yourself & your skill, or do you place your trust 100% in a mechanical device that you did not build?

"so, the obvious answer here is that you need to get an STI or a glock."

Todd made Grand Master with a Glock 22. CZ-USA however, is Todd's current sponsor. In 2004, CZ introduced a gun just for USPSA/IPSC Production division (the SP-01). There is a de-cocker version called the SP-01 "Tactical".

[jkushner1]

I RO'd at summerblast this past weekend and I only had one shooter out of at least 150 I ran that had to manually decock.

so, the obvious answer here is that you need to get an STI or a glock.

j/k

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Have an STI Edge, an STI Single Stack .40 and G-35 with all the bells and whistles. The CZ will shoot circles around those guns. Subjective response - thats my experience. You name it, I own it, Not a chance in the world anything gets in my range bag before my CZ 85 Combat when shooting Production or My CZ IPSC ST when shooting limited. I will not shoot anything else competitively. After selling most of my handguns, I have around 20 left, and the CZ's rule the roost. I'll stick with manual deckocking - thank you very much

[Gun Geek]

CZs make me nervous.

I've seen 3 of them as a USPA RO and an IDPA SO. 2 of the 3 have been ND'd and the guys DQ'd. Actually had one guy argue that since you have to manually drop the hammer, an AD (he insisted it was an AD, not ND) was going to happen and that he should not be DQ'd.

I understand why the CZs are built the way they are and I have shot one (and liked it), but to date the failure rate is too high and I will remain very vigilant when I see one.

"do you trust yourself & your skill, or do you place your trust 100% in a mechanical device that you did not build?"

Obviously I put 100% trust in something I did not build. Everytime the gun goes off, the only think keeping it from blowing my hand and face off is the gun. Sorry, but this is a non-starter argument. When a de-cocker is used the gun is pointed at the berm -I'm not putting 100% trust in it. If it fails, the AD (this time it is an AD if the gun fails) goes in a safe direction. That's not trust.

Problems with CZ will be user related, so I'm not advocating a ban. But as an RO/SO I will be damn sure they are pointed in a safe direction when de-cocking. If I see a CZ at LMAR, I make them slow down the process and be very deliberate about where it is pointed with they decock.

[Merlin Orr]

If I see a CZ at LMAR, I make them slow down the process and be very deliberate about where it is pointed with they decock.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmmm....?????

[ALBY]

then the shooter must have been Production Grand Master Todd Sindelar from Team CZ-USA; current gun: the CZ SP-01.

thats right doug and he did a damn fine job with it !

"so, the obvious answer here is that you need to get an STI or a glock."

this was a joke, for all the humor impaired among us, because of the prevalence of these guns at the match.

I bet that at least 80% of the open, limited and limited 10 guns were either STI or SVI and the 80% of production guns are Glock. Other than that, there were a few xd's and even some funny looking guns with round cylinders in the middle.

I already like CZ guns, so you're preaching to the choir.

[Matthew_Mink]

In 2004, CZ introduced a gun just for USPSA/IPSC Production division (the SP-01). There is a de-cocker version called the SP-01 "Tactical".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In fact, the SP-01 was not developed for Production division. It was developed for Law Enforcement/Military, and just happens to make a good Production gun. Its statements like the above that led to IPSC trying to put the ban on the gun earlier this year due to the misconception that it was a factory built Production gun. It's not.

[davidwiz]

And, as was pointed out on other threads, the SP-01 is in use with the Czech army and (IIRC) was designed with their imput. You can't get more 'practical' than that.

[Carlos]

Alby wrote: "this was a joke, for all the humor impaired among us, because of the prevalence of these guns at the match."

Got it & its all good; most of my Production shooting friends are shooting Glocks & they give me a ton of crap everytime I break down a cz mag for cleaning between stages. Don't even ask when happens on the rare occassions when the CZ jams ; the CZs are definitely a minority in a Division dominated by Glocks & to a lesser extent, de-cocker equiped Sigs & Berettas. In reality, I think its inevitable that lowering the hammer manually will get more scrutiny.

Matt - correct you are of course. Keeping fingers crossed as to the GA vote. Not holding out much hope for the TSC. At least CZ has an alternative in the wings.

D.

[jkushner1]

then the shooter must have been Production Grand Master Todd Sindelar from Team CZ-USA; current gun: the CZ SP-01.

thats right doug and he did a damn fine job with it !

"so, the obvious answer here is that you need to get an STI or a glock."

this was a joke, for all the humor impaired among us, because of the prevalence of these guns at the match.

I bet that at least 80% of the open, limited and limited 10 guns were either STI or SVI and the 80% of production guns are Glock. Other than that, there were a few xd's and even some funny looking guns with round cylinders in the middle.

I already like CZ guns, so you're preaching to the choir.

THE HUMOUR IMPAIRED APLOGIZES !

Have a good one, Jkushner1

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[jkushner1]

And everyone knows Carlos is major CZ fan as evidenced by previous posts. The unfortunate part about the Decocker version CZ's is that they have a significantly different sear/disconnector/hook design, so you cant get quite as sweet of a trigger out of them.

Synchonicity at its weirdest. Angus sent me a fixed rear sight from a TS for my IPSC ST. He had widened the notch since it had been on a gun he was shooting, I had an upcoming steel match, and was anxious to experiment with some ammo I had loaded (200 grain ! Zero RN FMJ bullet, .050 longer than std OAL and of all powders to choose from, 4.9 grains of WSF (not WST) that should have chrono'd at about 167PF - I havent chrono'd yet). So I put Angus's sight on, swwwweeeeet, bye bye adjustable rear and a std front steel blade, with an 11 lb wolff recoil spring and a Sprinco recoil reducing guide rod. Well, that equated to magic, its was pretty incredible, I never shot steel so fast, vs. my 130PF production loads. Just a slightly firm grip, a little Brian Enos Lift and drop and a guy I know says, I'm buying one of those TS's when they become available because I have never see you shoot steel so fast. It was an awesome experience. I'm no steel master, but I was actually picking up more than a second over my lighter load gun and I didnt need to fight the gun at all - timing was perfect, as soon as front sight would settle, I'd be on the next plate, so on and so forth - really cool. By the way I had Tommy Novak of NHO grit paint this funkadelic design on the grips with his heaviest grit - it looks very cool - It was the first CZ plastic he had ever painted. B)