Making Up a Mike on a Virginia Stage

[matteekay]

Howdy!

 

I'm curious as to how this would be scored. Let's make the COF super-simple: One target that has partial black/hard cover, two rounds, Virginia count. The competitor draws, fires, and scores one in the A-zone and one in the black. The competitor then takes an extra shot and gets another A. Is it:

 

A. Alpha-Alpha, Procedural for extra shots taken

B. Alpha-Alpha, Procedurals for extra shots taken and extra hit

 

We debated this a little last night. The Option A thinking is that extra shots are counted at the line, extra hits are counted at the target, and 9.4.5.2 states that hard cover hits are not counted. The Option B contention is that one of the initial two shots was the Mike, so we know that the second Alpha is in excess.

 

Thoughts? Anyone run into this?

Edited November 16, 2017 by matteekay

[motosapiens]

rules are pretty clear. extra shot. no extra hit. As you note, hardcover hits don't count as hits, so how you could you have an extra hit?

[matteekay]

For the record, Option A was my camp, lol.

[waktasz]

You score the extra shots at the line, as they are fired. You score the extra hits at the target. Your contention of Option B is trying to score the extra hit using additional information other than the target. 

[JAFO]

48 minutes ago, waktasz said:

You score the extra shots at the line, as they are fired. You score the extra hits at the target. 

 

^^^  Always go by this when scoring Virginia Count.

[matteekay]

Makes sense to me. 

 

From the shooter's perspective - is it better to take the Mike? Or the Alpha+Penalty if they can make up the shot quickly?

[sfinney]

Almost never pays off to take a make up shot on Virginia count. It can, but you have to very lucky and very good. And almost instantaneous on the make up. And not miss again, or shoot a no shoot, or.....   Yeah, just take the mike.

[waktasz]

If you can make it up really fast, it's worth some points, not a ton, but it's there. If it's a two string stage plan a speedy makeup for the second string. 

[MikeBurgess]

2 hours ago, matteekay said:

Makes sense to me. 

 

From the shooter's perspective - is it better to take the Mike? Or the Alpha+Penalty if they can make up the shot quickly?

It all depends, as sfinny said in one string it would need to happen pretty quickly within a string of fire, and you need to know your going to get a good hit, all you have to gain is the  points you shoot so 5 points max improvement.

If it is a multi string standard the math can be a little different, if you know you missed on an earlier string you can plan the extra shots on a later string with little time given up. 

 

they key is you must KNOW you have a miss, making up a delta with an alpha hurts really bad as you end up trading 1 or 2 points for -14 or 15

[matteekay]

Gotcha. The stage in question is CM 13-06, Too Close for Comfort (10 shots). The front headshot is only 5 yards so I'd be pretty confident in picking it up (though really shouldn't have missed it in the first place, lol). 

[waktasz]

Do the math.

What's your split on that shot going to be for the makeup? 

 

 

Say you had 3 B/C hits plus the mike and do it in 8 seconds. If you can take .5 seconds to make up the mike with an A your HF goes from 3.625 to 4.  If you make up the miss with a B it only goes to 3.76.

It's actually worth a bit more than I would have originally expected before doing the math.

 

pts	39	44
pen	10	10
time	8	8.5
hf	3.625	4

 

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2017 by waktasz

[waktasz]

Upon further review there's a much simpler way to look at it. 

You are going to gain 5 points (assuming you hit an A) for the makeup. Divide that by your time to fire the makeup shot. If that is higher than your HF for the stage, it's worth it, and since you already have a penalty (and a low-ish HF)  either way, it's almost always going to be worth it.

Edited November 17, 2017 by waktasz

[matteekay]

See? This is why I pose the question to smarter people than me. That's a great way to look at it!

[teros135]

6 hours ago, waktasz said:

Do the math.

What's your split on that shot going to be for the makeup? 

 

 

Say you had 3 B/C hits plus the mike and do it in 8 seconds. If you can take .5 seconds to make up the mike with an A your HF goes from 3.625 to 4.  If you make up the miss with a B it only goes to 3.76.

It's actually worth a bit more than I would have originally expected before doing the math.

 

pts	39	44
pen	10	10
time	8	8.5
hf	3.625	4

 

 

(Edit:  The following may be interesting but doesn't actually apply to this situation, as we discovered as we talked.  There are only 10 penalty points in this scenario, not 20.  Sorry guys, not computing well today  )

 

I'm seeing the math a bit differently, considering the extra-shot penalty.  You get +5 points for hitting an A on the extra shot, but also -10 points penalty for taking the extra shot. 

 

CM 13-06 is a 10-shot Virginia count stage, max points 50.  You're a high B-class shooter in Limited/major. 

 

You shoot it in 8.0 seconds and get 6A, 3BC, 1M.  That's 42 target points - 10 penalty points = 32 points.  32/8 = HF 4.0

 

Or, you do it with the make-up shot (Alpha) in 8.5 sec and get 7A, 3C, 1M (1 extra-shot penalty).  That's 47 pts - 20 penalty = 27 points.  27/8.5 = HF 3.176, a definite loss. 

 

A Limited GM with 6A, 3C,1M in 4.8 sec gets 32/4.8 = HF 6.67. 

With a make-up shot at a split of .20 (5.0 sec total), he gets 7A, 3C, 1M = 27/5 = HF 5.4. 

 

It doesn't seem to make sense to do the extra shot, since it's such as short/fast stage and both the time and penalty hurt you. 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2017 by teros135

[casarez]

Why the 20 point penalty in your second example? He would have 10 hits on paper. The only penalty is the extra shot.

[teros135]

29 minutes ago, casarez said:

Why the 20 point penalty in your second example? He would have 10 hits on paper. The only penalty is the extra shot.

 

That would be for a hardcover M on the nearest target.  I guess you'd get away with it on plain targets, but you'd have to be darn sure you missed and pick up that target right away.  But, wow, I can't think that fast on the clock, and it's only an 8-second stage 

 

And I'm computationally challenged ...

Edited November 17, 2017 by teros135

[casarez]

I had thought they count the best hits on paper. Meaning the hard cover Mike would be ignored. Am I missing something?

[teros135]

Score is best 2 (or as specified) per paper, minus penalties.  The hard cover M is penalized.  

 

It sounds like you might get away with making up a regular M on plain paper, if you're quick enough (the B shooter above has up to 1.25 seconds if he gets an A (less for a C), but at 1.25 sec he's right back to a HF of 4.0).  

 

The penalty for a hit on a partial, OTOH, can't be negated.

 

 Still a lot of fast thinking.  I'd rather just shoot it and let it be.  

[matteekay]

5 minutes ago, teros135 said:

Score is best 2 (or as specified) per paper, minus penalties.  The hard cover M is penalized.  

 

Would it be?

 

On Virginia Count Courses of Fire:

 

9.4.5.2 Extra hits (i.e. hits on the scoring area of scoring paper targets in excess of the total number specified in the stage), will each incur one procedural penalty. Note that hits on hard cover and/or no-shoots are not treated as Extra Hits

 

Or were you referring to a different penalty?

 

Edited November 17, 2017 by matteekay

[teros135]

Hmmm.  Are you saying that NS hits don't count if there are two hits on paper?  If so, I've been looking at VC wrong...

[matteekay]

That was the initial question in the thread. 9.4.5.2 seems to affirm this.

[Southpaw]

A miss fully into a hardcover target is the same as a miss straight into the berm. If you make up the shot then it doesn't still count as a mike, and also not an extra hit.

[teros135]

No, as the initial question reads it was a hard cover hit that was made up, not a NS.  I get that the hardcover hit isn't a M because there are two scorable hits in the brown.  That's the same as making up a hard cover hit in a regular stage and having two paper hits. 

 

My thought was about no-shoots.  If 9.4.5.2 really means that a NS hit is nullified by another paper hit, that's a new one on me.  NS are always penalized and can't be nullified by getting another paper hit - but here it seems they might be, but only in VC.  I'm wondering if the wording of 9.4.5.2 actually means that the NS isn't penalized AGAIN as an "extra hit", it's just penalized as a NS.  Thoughts, folks?

 

If it means what you think it does, then I'd rather have a NS than HC on classifiers so I can see my misses in the white and make them up, in order to nullify the NS penalty. 

 

Edited November 17, 2017 by teros135

[teros135]

8 minutes ago, Southpaw said:

A miss fully into a hardcover target is the same as a miss straight into the berm. If you make up the shot then it doesn't still count as a mike, and also not an extra hit.

 

Agreed. 

[matteekay]

6 minutes ago, teros135 said:

No, as the initial question reads it was a hard cover hit that was made up, not a NS.  I get that the hardcover hit isn't a M because there are two scorable hits in the brown.  That's the same as making up a hard cover hit in a regular stage and having two paper hits. 

 

My thought was about no-shoots.  If 9.4.5.2 really means that a NS hit is nullified by another paper hit, that's a new one on me.  NS are always penalized and can't be nullified by getting another paper hit - but here it seems they might be, but only in VC.  I'm wondering if the wording of 9.4.5.2 actually means that the NS isn't penalized AGAIN as an "extra hit", it's just penalized as a NS.  Thoughts, folks?

 

If it means what you think it does, then I'd rather have a NS than HC on classifiers so I can see my misses in the white and make them up, in order to nullify the NS penalty. 

 

 

I don't think No Shoots were mentioned anywhere in the thread. I was only ever discussing hard cover hits.