Professional Class?

[Bob Hostetter]

A professional class huh? This idea comes up every few years with the same results, nothing......... The only time I can remember anything happening with it was when GM class was created. Now everyone wants to create a Super GM class?

The basic problem with GM class as it stands is it is too easy to get into to. The classification percentage should be moved to about 98%, should also require a major match performance standard (say a win at the Area or Nationals level), and should require that the shooter maintain that average by shooting a certain number of classifiers every year. This would create a true GM or Pro class, getting all the noncompetitive GM's back into Master class where they belong.

Now, since you have created a professional class, vs an amatuer class for the M's thru D's, you should eliminate prize tables completely since everyone other then the Gm's are amatuers and shouldn't be shooting for compensation. This would free a lot of money up for improving the quality of the matches. It would reduce a huge burden off of the sponsors allowing them to provide additional support to their shooters, allowing the Pro's to shoot more often in more places. In fact, instead of demanding product and/or money from potential sponsors, we could instead require them to staff a display booth and have their sponsored shooters shoot the match, both of which would improve the quality of the event more then a box full of primers/bore cleaner/bullets/etc/etc/etc would.

Just as a side note, most of my adult life when I haven't been shooting, I have been racing, primarially boats and sprint cars. In both of these sports the promoters had the same problem we have been discussing regarding getting the big dogs to show up to increase attendance. For at least the last 20 years the answer has been "Show Money or Tow Money". The promoters contact the competitors they were interested in well in advance ( as in before the season started) and get them to commit to attending the event. In return they were promised "Show Money", upon arriving they are paid an agreed upon fee to cover their expenses for attending. The fee is usually based on the competitors travel expenses. Another way is to tie a manufacturers event sponsorship to include having their sponsored competitors compete, the advantage to the promoter being the sponsor assumes the cost of getting their shooter(s) to the event.

Until the amatuer shooters in our sport realize that in any competitive event the rewards by defination should go to the winners, and the promoters learn that there is more to staging a professional shooting event then designing, building, and staffing the event, we are going to continue to have this same discussion every year or so..........

As one last side note, the problem of scheduling overlaps ( A1 and A8 being on the same weekend) is unforgivable. It absolutely must be controlled by USPSA and is a huge example of the lack of professionalism in our sport and leadership. USPSA should never have agreed to sanction whichever group attempted to schedule the second match on that date(s). If we can't run our sport with better professionalism then that how are we ever going to convince major corp's to give us money or support to finance our sport?

[alma]

You see it as isolation?  I see it as an incentive for shooters to strive for.  Once you make Professional class, you have a shot (no pun intended) at competing for more money.  I see it like the PGA, even the last place finisher still gets some money under the graduated pay-out system.  Why couldn't a similar system work here?

Charging the best shooters more so that you can have something to give them doesn't sound like a good idea to me. Who wants to spend an extra $100 on a match? For me it means that I would never want to get close to the "pro" class because know I will never be the one winning the major matches. I would just be donating my extra entry fee to the first place shooter.

Let's not try to separate ourselves into classes so much. For me, first place "C" class at nationals really means that that person should have been an "A" or "B" class shooter. The people who we should be chasing are the best shooters in the game, and not just the other shooters who share our classification.

Having a Pro class seems like a good way to justify loosing to someone who is a better shooter with the excuse that he is a Pro and I am not.

I can't see how anyone could make any kind of profit on USPSA shooting, no matter how many major matches they win. Prize tables are a nice bonus and all but if you are in the sport for the money, you are in the wrong sport.

[Bear1142]

For me it means that I would never want to get close to the "pro" class because know I will never be the one winning the major matches. I would just be donating my extra entry fee to the first place shooter.

Alma,

I'm not picking on you, but I don't understand your attitude? If you make it into the Pro class, you'll be on a competitive level with the top 2% of GM's. You won't be "donating" your money, you'll be competing for the win. People don't come into this sport at the top. They work hard and get better. How many people were betting that our own BE'r Smitty was going to win Area 6? He worked hard and he beat one of the toughest field of Limited GM shooters this side of the Nationals. There were something like 13 Limited GM's at an AREA match. That is incredible! Stop doubting yourself. When you reach the Pro level, you won't be giving anything away. If you shoot a good match, you'll have the skill level to beat the best and take the win.

Erik

[alma]

Sorry Erik, I guess I am being negative about the whole thing. I guess my point is that it won't work if the Pro class are the only ones funding the Pro class. I don't have a better solution to the problem though so I will just stay out of this one now.

[SmittyFL]

How many people were betting that our own BE'r Smitty was going to win Area 6?

Not me

[Loves2Shoot]

Great post Bob.

Ditto Alma, Flex, Bruce.

QUOTE

The pro shooters are already getting paid, they don't shoot matches for the $$$, you can make more $$$ teaching a class for the day than that payout.

Yes, that is absolutely try, BUT, you have to establish an identity and a track record of winning or performing at a very high level before a bunch of people are going to start dropping $400-$500 per day for your instructor skills.

Correct, I don't know anyone who charges that much a day, unless it is one-on-one. You can get quality instruction for $150-300 a day all over the country, a class of 5 at $200 = $1000. There are a lot of good shooters who can teach for affordable prices. Travis and Max can get 10 people at $500 for the weekend, $2500 each -minus costs. Better than the payout of a match by a lot, especially after match expenses. You make more teaching than shooting, like The Burner.

QUOTE

SOCIALISM in shooting is a crappy idea IMO. Your gonna have to school me on this one.

Redistribution of wealth. Compensation based on a "handicap." Not rewarding those who are the best, trying to make everyone feel "good." The thinking, "If I win D Class I should get equal compensation to the winner M Class." If you are tired of winning shock buffs, do something about it, or, just have fun. You don't get rich shooting IPSC, some of the best shooters in the world barely make a decent living.

QUOTE

You see it as isolation? I see it as an incentive for shooters to strive for. Once you make Professional class, you have a shot (no pun intended) at competing for more money. I see it like the PGA, even the last place finisher still gets some money under the graduated pay-out system. Why couldn't a similar system work here?

The money you talk about "winning" is barely enough to cover the cost of the trip. Big money in other sport is provided by sponsorship, not doling it out yourself. The expenses to shoot at the top level can be huge, your paybacks don't even cover a couple weeks ammo.

QUOTE

If you want them to come, bribe them.. We are, with more prize money

Not really, it becomes top shooters passing around the same money.

QUOTE

Not quite sure what you're saying? Are you saying the matches should pay the GM's to shoot? I certainly don't think that will fly, and I don't know any club that doesn't work very hard to provide a great match.

I'm saying that might help, at the top it is very close, charging them more thinking they odds of a relatively small prize to investment will "lure" them in isn't very likely.

QUOTE

Like CHP5 stated, make it 95% of a major match score and include Area matches and you'll have many more in the Professional class. Off the top of my head you can move Shannon Smith, Seeklander, Butler, Tomasie, Miguez, Strader, and add Ara Maljian. This is just from Area's 1, 6, 7, and 8.

Off the top of your head is wrong, you would have to change it to one match or the "best of." Then you have to shoot how many major matches? It becomes very cost prohibative. You could vote them in, but that might just piss them off, having to pay all that extra coin just to shoot.

My last comment, this is an amatuer sport, creating a "god" class, why? High overall is high overall, does having a M or GM beat a Super GM have value? The difference between good and great is very tiny. Any legit M could be a GM, the last 5% isn't much. If you happen to shoot some classifiers that suit you strength it will happen without intent. (That's how it happened to me) I would never have gotten it if I had to shoot strong or weakhand stages.

Maybe we should just hand out blue capes with red S's, that would be cheap and stroke the egos of those who are in it just for the "GM Card."

GM is just the begining...

... not the end.

[Chriss Grube]

The problem is the same as it has been. We have true GM's and we have people that have GM cards. The classifier system is broken. Fix it and you will fix the problem. How many A,M and GM's actually shoot in there class at a big match? Not to damn many. The big boys show up and you have some GM's shooting A class percentages if they are lucky? Sorry if you are truely a GM or Master,barring a total equipment meltdown, you should not be getting your A$$ handed to you by A and B class shooters. No need for a SGM class or Pro. Just make the percentages what they should be. Only way to get M and GM should be on actual match performance not shooting the classifier over and over going for broke. Hell all you have to do is burn it down if you trash it they throw it out. You can't do that on a Match based performance system.

[Barrettone]

Thread drift mode <on>

Chriss:

The problem with what you are proposing is that not everybody can make it to matches with at least 3 GM's in their division simply to get classified (that is what is required for match based classifications). How do you propose "fixing" the system in the fashion you describe, when MOST USPSA shooters only attend local matches and the occasional sectional??? Not many GM's there to set the bar properly. There will be skewed numbers, as the match percentages will be offset due to the top shooter only being say...A class. Match scores can not be used as a basis for classification at the club level, therefore, you have relegated everybody who doesn't, or can't afford to shoot majors, as unclassified. You can't just say "fix it"...offer solutions, or if you can't, then we have to run with what we got. It ain't perfect, but its the best thing going right now. Besides, this is a huge thread drift. The question was whether or not we needed a "Pro" class. We need another thread altogether to discuss this issue further.

Thread drift mode <off>

[Cameron]

Seems to me that the same people that invest the time to be in the top 2% are the same people that DO make it to Area and National matches. People that only shoot locally, generally speaking, are not going to gain the match experiance needed to be a top 2% contender.

Chriss has a great point. Many people can practice, and shoot classifiers until they reach the GM status, then hit an area match feeling good about themselves and shoot 80%. I think we have seen this at more than one sectional and area match this year.

How to fix it? Require Area level match performance in the calculation.

[TDean]

The basic problem with GM class as it stands is it is too easy to get into to. The classification percentage should be moved to about 98%, should also require a major match performance standard (say a win at the Area or Nationals level), and should require that the shooter maintain that average by shooting a certain number of classifiers every year. This would create a true GM or Pro class, getting all the noncompetitive GM's back into Master class where they belong.

Too easy indeed. Major match finishes are far more telling of a person's actual ranking. As I see it, there should be around a dozen GMs in the entire sport.

[Chriss Grube]

Barretone,

Reread my post the answer is right there. YOU want to make M or GM you earn it at a major match with the big dogs not shooting the classifiers. Otherwise you sit in A class. The 3 GM's in a division needs revised also. Sevigny, TGO, Max, JJ, Tilley, TJ, TT shows up it counts. It is real easy to look and see they shoot and the next mortal is 90% if they're lucky most times the 80's. Master and especially GM should be for the ones that earn it at the big shows not local matches.

[Loves2Shoot]

Barretone,

Reread my post the answer is right there. YOU want to make M or GM you earn it at a major match with the big dogs not shooting the classifiers. Otherwise you sit in A class. The 3 GM's in a division needs revised also. Sevigny, TGO, Max, JJ, Tilley, TJ, TT shows up it counts. It is real easy to look and see they shoot and the next mortal is 90% if they're lucky most times the 80's. Master and especially GM should be for the ones that earn it at the big shows not local matches.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why have classes at all?

What good does it have to have a M or GM card? If you don't win, you don't win.

There is a much bigger problem with people who are AFRAID to move up a class because there is tougher competition.

With your reasoning move everyone down two classes and invent E and F class.

[Sterling White]

If there are no new sponsorship dollars coming in, no tv promos, and no funds generated by spectators, somebody in the marketing office needs to be smacked on top of the head. But wait.... this isn't NASCAR whereby sponsors line up to hang their flags at center stage..... this is a gun game !

This proposal sounds like a good ol' drag race. Spend your week tweeking and tuning so you can travel down the road to test it against others who want a shot at the $$$

edited to include the following:

Here's an alternative way to generate some $$$ and added fun: The calcutta has been around for a long time in fishing and shotgun tournaments. Here's an example how it works....

The Calcutta sale is optional for all contestants. Your participation is not required. It is an auction sale held immediately prior to the shooters meeting every day. It is an auction where every participant entered in the event is sold one at a time to the highest bidder. Anyone participating in the event shall be allowed to bid and own the finishing position of the participant they buy. The effect of the sale is to produce a side pot that will be paid at the finish of the tournament, but separate to the regular tournament prize table. The Calcutta pot will be 100 percent payback, and will pay 3 places (50-30-20) to the owners of the first 3 place finishers in the tournament. This could be done for each division.

Calcutta Rules

1. The minimum bid per participant shall be $25.00. If a participant fails to have a bidder, that participant will go into the no bid pool, the no bid pool will be sold in its entirety last.

2. Any participant entering after the Calcutta sale will automatically belong to the owner of the no bid pool.

3. The successful bidder will be responsible for the entire bid money. Some times owners elect to sell. The sales price will be settled between the parties involved

4. All bids must be paid immediately proceeding the sale.

Its customary for owners to tip the particpant with a percentage of the win. Usually its a 65% to the owner and 35% to the shooter.

[Chriss Grube]

Not moving anybody down in class and not adding classes. Just make sure that the people who are carrying an M or GM card earned it from competition not repetition. How many posts have been on here about I'm a Master but I go to a big match and get spanked? M and GM earned in the ocean not the pond out in podunk.

[shred]

I'm an M that is lucky to shoot 80% of Max at a big match. Yet I beat all the A's regularly and usually by a decent margin. Where should I be?

[Loves2Shoot]

Not moving anybody down in class and not adding classes. Just make sure that the people who are carrying an M or GM card earned it from competition not repetition. How many posts have been on here about I'm a Master but I go to a big match and get spanked? M and GM earned in the ocean not the pond out in podunk.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

D/C/B/A Shooters can earn their cards from repetion too. I've earned my classes straight up, but Robbie would most likely kick my ass. Just because you carry the same card doesn't mean you have the same skill, that is just plain common sense. That's why we have matches.

Then should people earn their A, B, C, D cards the same way to, right? Why would you get your M or GM card different then the rest?

I'm missing your logic.

A M/GM Card is not a badge of honor, it just tells you who your competition for the match is, and if your goal is overall finish, then the cards are worthless.

I'd compete in a bring what you have classes/divisions be damned class.

[John Dunn]

I think someone is confusing the terms Grandmaster and National Champion, they aren't the same.

Bottom line, if you can shoot enough GM classifiers to become a paper GM, you do not belong in A class.

[Chriss Grube]

M and GM is supposed to be the best of the best. That's why it should be different. I'd be perfectly happy to trash the whole system and shoot heads up.

[38supPat]

I say drop all the classes, run what you brung and have a prize table (or cash) that pays out in order of overall finish. Have everyone pay an extra $100 for the prize table and make each shooter earn it with his/her best performance on that day.

[Wakal]

Mmmm....heads-up competition...

IMO, the classification system is designed to reward mediocrity. "...oh, look, I got third A at Area 4! A trophy is MINE...buah hah hah!"

Well, to reward mediocrity and keep folks with no particular interest in getting better...happy. Again IMO, if you want to run with the big boys, then practice (or practice...more). It is bad enough that we reward special categories by damning them with faint praise "...oh, my, you got your butt kicked, but since you were the best of the red-headed left-handed turnip-twaddlers, you get this piece of ornate wood to commemorate the occasion where you were not good enough to actually win, but were just good enough to beat the other few red-headed left-handed turnip-twaddlers..."

I can see separating by equipment...Open, Limited, Revolver. Otherwise, load 'em up, cowpoke, it is time to shoot.

Alex

[John Dunn]

I'm all for shooting heads up, but I don't see anything special about the M/GM classifications, they are just arbitrary divisions like all the other classes.

Having everyone pay an extra $100 to shoot is a crappy idea. Having everyone that wants to pay an extra $100 (the M/GMs) for a shot at the grand prize is OK. I think its a bad idea to tell all the D and C class shooters they have to pay extra to subsidize the GMs.

[shred]

Hmmm.. I can think of half a dozen folks off the top of my head, not including me, 'cause I wouldn't that would quit or scale back participation if the class system went away. Like it or not, it gives you a way to compare yourself both to others and your previous performances. That's the way it is. Comparison and rankings are big, so long as you didn't go to public school recently.

Check the IPSC poll on the topic (and others) : http://www.ipsc.org/voxarchive.htm#ICS

[Barrettone]

Chriss:

I understand what you are saying (and your remedy), but really don't understand why you have a briar in yer saddle over it. If they lose, they lose. Having a GM classification, and finishing 20th overall is humiliating. Let the paper GM's humiliate themselves if that is what they want. They are only hurting themselves. To do away with the classes (as you state) would be catastrophic to USPSA. In the past few years, USPSA has grown tremendously. No thanks in part, to the fact that people of all skill levels can compete, and maybe even win a small something. That encouragement goes a long way. If we discontinue being "newbie friendly", we risk far more than we gain. Think back to when you were new to all this $hit. You cannot honestly tell me that you don't have a special place in your heart for your first class win. It probably encouraged you, and today, you are out there duking it out with the big boys at majors....It wasn't always like that though. How often we advance and forget our roots....In short, no paper GM ever makes the World Shoot Team for the US, and they really don't "embarrass " anybody but themselves. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water on this one.

[Alan Meek]

What is really needed is a shooting circut that is specifically for the "Pros" only, as much as I hate to compare our sport with golf. Golf has the USGA and the PGA. USGA is the general membership and the PGA are the bigboys playing for all the money.

As far as I can tell the golf pros are USGA members and have a PGA tour card.

Alan

[Loves2Shoot]

How many card carrying PGA golf pros can't compete with Tiger, VJay, and the others at the very top that are at another level, yet they made the requirements for the "pro" card? Tiger doesn't have a diamond encrusted super dupper mega platinum super ninja golf god card. Maybe he should, or maybe he doesn't need one, everyone knows that in each sport there are those who stand a step above the rest