Shots not getting picked up.

[Neomet]

3 hours ago, AWLAZS said:

When PCC was introduced to USPSA we were told it would not change the way we were running matches. A pistol shooter would not even notice the PCCs at the match.   I think it's crazy to expect ro's to stop and adjust the timer settings between shooters.  I have messed with my own timer and get echo's  when I start adjusting the sensitivity up. I wouldn't expect ro's to have to run a pcc shooter differently than any other competitor. An ro is supposed to be watching the shooter not looking at the timer to see if its catching all the shots.  A PCC shooter comes to a match knowing it's a timed event. They should make sure their equipment is going to work. You need your gun to run well so you can get through a stage without problems. To me, if you down load your gun so it sounds suppressed and you get stuck reshooting it's on the shooter.

 

The idea of having to stop and mic up the PCC shooter is ridiculous. You are now putting the official time keeping device into the hands of the competitor.  

The idea was not to mic up for PCC shooters but to have permanent timers with a directional mike on them which is used exactly the same for every shooter.  I even indicated I would buy the equipment so it would not be a problem for the club and require no additional duties on a RO.  Your comment that the proposal is unduly burdensome is ridiculous.  I agree ROs need to be watching shooters not timers and I don't think that is a good way to go.  Having to reshoot because I am running 135 PF out of a MPX which does not easily accept a comp without an accompanying tax stamp (thanks SIG for the odd barrel length)  is kind of a pita but maybe on me.  Frankly I bring enough ammo and if I get to shoot more stages than anyone else for the same entry fee I won't be crying.  The bigger concern is about last shots not being picked up giving some competitors better scores than they earned or at a minimum tainting a great run with the last shots not captured argument.  

 

I would really like this thread to focus on ways to improve this situation and not descend into something else.  Thanks for everyone's suggestions and brainstorming on this.  Keep it coming!

[BritinUSA]

I have a CED 7000 , I will see if I can try it with my Rode microphone this weekend to see how it works.

[AWLAZS]

6 hours ago, Neomet said:

The idea was not to mic up for PCC shooters but to have permanent timers with a directional mike on them which is used exactly the same for every shooter.  I even indicated I would buy the equipment so it would not be a problem for the club and require no additional duties on a RO.  Your comment that the proposal is unduly burdensome is ridiculous.  I agree ROs need to be watching shooters not timers and I don't think that is a good way to go.  Having to reshoot because I am running 135 PF out of a MPX which does not easily accept a comp without an accompanying tax stamp (thanks SIG for the odd barrel length)  is kind of a pita but maybe on me.  Frankly I bring enough ammo and if I get to shoot more stages than anyone else for the same entry fee I won't be crying.  The bigger concern is about last shots not being picked up giving some competitors better scores than they earned or at a minimum tainting a great run with the last shots not captured argument.  

 

I would really like this thread to focus on ways to improve this situation and not descend into something else.  Thanks for everyone's suggestions and brainstorming on this.  Keep it coming!

It might be expensive for you to outfit the entire country with new timers. 

Mbx has a comp for the carbine mpx. If you can swing the price of the mpx you can male sure the gun is loud enough to be heard by the timer.

Like I said pcc will not require any changes to the way match is run. If or when  it does my club will stop offering it.

 

 

 

[BritinUSA]

I just checked my CED 7000 manual, the socket at the bottom is an AUX output for driving an external indicator instead of the beep. It does not have an external microphone socket.

 

I'll take the microphone to the match this weekend (work permitting) and check the timers that the club uses to see if they have such a port.

 

FYI: Like the CED 7000, the PocketPro timer has a sensitivity adjustment but it requires the use of a small flat bladed screwdriver to make the change. 

Edited August 24, 2017 by BritinUSA

[GeneBray]

Okay, there has to be a fix for this.  We are seeing a large increase in PCC shooters (yea) but with that an unacceptable level of runs where not a single shot registers on the timer or clearly the last sequence is not picked up. (The D class shooter who finishes dead last on every other stage but crushes the second best stage time on one).  This results in PCCers bringing twice the ammo so we can shoot everything twice, inaccurate results, and huge doubts about the validity of match results because of a general lack of confidence that the timer accurately picked up the last shot of your and your competitors' runs.  This has gotten bad enough that conscientious ROS are riding up on the backs of competitors in ways that require a marriage license in 13 states.  What I am looking for here is a technology fix, not the "train your ROs better " answer.   
 
Can this be done with turning the sensitivity of the chronos way up without ending up with extra time from the Open shooter in the next bay?  Selfie poles??  Directional mics on timers???  What if anything is working out there?  

Guess our clubs don't know what to do. Most use CED CEI-4000 or CEI-2800 timers or older models of the same timer. We seldom have reshoots now. We did at the start until timer sensitivity was adjusted and ROs learned the techniques necessary to ensure the last shot was recorded. Two major matches in the state so far. RM 300 w/8 PCC. The stage I worked no reshoots for PCC for missed last shot. The Mile High had 12 PCC. Two or three PCC were on our squad. Do not recall any PCC reshoots for time issues on the 12 stages.

Low end timers, set correctly, and ROs doing their job correctly.

These were USPSA matches not steel.

The most problematic issue I've seen is RF at steel matches. You adjust timer sensitivity for RF and back down when done. Good RO technique and you seldom miss the last shoot. Please note the operative word "seldom."


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[Hammer002]

1 hour ago, GeneBray said:

Low end timers, set correctly, and ROs doing their job correctly.

 

The most problematic issue I've seen is RF at steel matches. You adjust timer sensitivity for RF and back down when done. Good RO technique and you seldom miss the last shoot. Please note the operative word "seldom."

 

^^^This^^^

 

Personally, I think the PCC boom has put a spot light on some weak RO techniques I was seeing long before PCC.  Ive seen guys with the timer on the other end of a stage when not needed for safety, just spacing off or not wanting to move so much.  I've seen guys (a lot) not paying attention to what they are doing with the timer and holding it to their chest or leg with the mic inward.  I had an RO once clear me after a stage and, unnoticed by me initially, he held the timer up to the side of the gun while using one of the fingers on the hand holding the timer to point at my gun and the timer was picking up the racking of the slide well after the stage was completed.  Luckily someone else said something about it before I had to point it out for myself.  I think there have been situations when times have been inaccurate both ways due to improper RO technique in other divisions and the PCC is just spotlighting it.  With that said, if the timer's sensitivity is not properly adjusted, it can be irrelevant how good a job anyone does.  When I started shooting PCC a couple months ago I put a brake on the end of the barrel, already having experience with the issue in Steel Challenge with rimfire.  It really isn't that big a deal, you really have to just concentrate on getting the last shot.  What I think has become a little complacent is this should have already been important before.  I try to be helpful, and just like if I am going to take off running in the direction of the RO and let him know before we start, I tend to tell them when shooting PCC where I plan to finish as well so we are on the same page, allowing him to trust his position.  We haven't seen an excessive amount here, but every once in a while.  Hopefully it will just work itself out, cause PCC is taking off.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Hammer002

[Neomet]

10 hours ago, AWLAZS said:

It might be expensive for you to outfit the entire country with new timers. 

Mbx has a comp for the carbine mpx. If you can swing the price of the mpx you can male sure the gun is loud enough to be heard by the timer.

Like I said pcc will not require any changes to the way match is run. If or when  it does my club will stop offering it.

 

 

 

I'm sorry, I missed the part where I said I had any plans to fund a nationwide campaign.  MBX does make a really nice comp however I believe it currently leaves the barrel at just under 16" unless Adrian has come out with a more recent version.  Yet again I will ask you to stay on topic.  I get your position.  Everybody gets it.  You are not going to do a single thing at your club for PCC and PCCers need to mod their equipment.  That is certainly your prerogative but this thread is for discussion among those who are willing and want to look at other ways improve a perceived problem.  If you would like to contribute to that please do.  If not, please start another thread or join one where debate of PCC is the topic.

[BritinUSA]

Searched online last night and none of the PocketPro series of timers have an external microphone socket.

[ChuckS]

We had our first evening steel match last night. My fossil timer worked just fine for everything although it was a challenge to get all the shots for a 10/22. PCCs were no problem.

11 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

I just checked my CED 7000 manual, the socket at the bottom is an AUX output for driving an external indicator instead of the beep. It does not have an external microphone socket.

 

I'll take the microphone to the match this weekend (work permitting) and check the timers that the club uses to see if they have such a port.

 

FYI: Like the CED 7000, the PocketPro timer has a sensitivity adjustment but it requires the use of a small flat bladed screwdriver to make the change. 

I don't recall seeing any remote mic inputs on timers. Just display as you saw and I think for an external signal like a stop plate switch. Of course, this was technology that was developed when guns were loud

 

(ETA: The PP2 has a menu item to set the sensitivity. )

Edited August 24, 2017 by ChuckS

[Neomet]

Hmmm, that is a bummer.  Yeah Chuck, I alternate between my Open gun that has ROs trying to triple plug or hand the timer off to somebody else and my MPX which even with non-subsonic rounds sounds like somebody popping bubble wrap.  I never feel RO love when I step to the line  :-)

[ChuckS]

31 minutes ago, Neomet said:

Hmmm, that is a bummer.  Yeah Chuck, I alternate between my Open gun that has ROs trying to triple plug or hand the timer off to somebody else and my MPX which even with non-subsonic rounds sounds like somebody popping bubble wrap.  I never feel RO love when I step to the line  :-)

LOL, the old days!

[BritinUSA]

There were no PCC shooters on my squad today but I have results of some testing using an iPhone and Rode microphone.

 

I used an iPhone App called 'Make Ready Lite' it's a free version with limited function but I was able to use it for testing. The App is on iTunes at the following link: 
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/make-ready-lite-the-free-shot-timer/id862132026?mt=8

 

I turned the sensitivity down to 50% and with the Rode microphone I was not able to pick up any shots from the neighboring berm, but I was able to pick up all the shots from a Production shooter on my squad (9mm Minor) from between 12-20 meters away. 

 

I think this setup may help to pick up the shots of your PCC competitors (assuming that adjusting your existing timers does not work). It should not be difficult to attach that microphone to a clip that the RO could attach to their hat, this way the mic would always be pointed at the shooter as that's where the RO should be looking anyway, right. 

 

You will need an adapter cable to attach the Rode microphone to an iPhone (not sure about Android devices), then you could hold that device in your hand and operate just like a regular timer.

 

I hope this helps.

[BritinUSA]

Just one more thing; it might be worth trying a few of the available apps for iPhone/Android without the external microphone... they seem to have better microphones than the timers and may be able to pick up the shots without using an external mic.

[AWLAZS]

On 8/24/2017 at 10:29 AM, Neomet said:

I'm sorry, I missed the part where I said I had any plans to fund a nationwide campaign.  MBX does make a really nice comp however I believe it currently leaves the barrel at just under 16" unless Adrian has come out with a more recent version.  Yet again I will ask you to stay on topic.  I get your position.  Everybody gets it.  You are not going to do a single thing at your club for PCC and PCCers need to mod their equipment.  That is certainly your prerogative but this thread is for discussion among those who are willing and want to look at other ways improve a perceived problem.  If you would like to contribute to that please do.  If not, please start another thread or join one where debate of PCC is the topic.

You are wrong about me and PCC. I am the club president and one of the few clubs around here that offers pcc, they just don't get any special treatment.  I talk with my pcc guys and try to make things run smoothly.  If the answer isn't to make the guns loud enough to be heard then I guess the only other thing you could do is design a new timer. 

[Neomet]

Thanks for the effort and helpful input Paul.  Ray, I was just referencing your comment about being told your club would not have to anything to accommodate PCC, and trying to keep this thread on an admittedly narrow track.  I appreciate everything you are doing for PCC at your club.  What I am trying to do here is to focus on some tech way to make ROing PCC shooters easier for ROs  through tech, either adjusting sensitivity or some low cost modification to timers or some way I don't even know about.  

 

[ChuckS]

5 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

Just one more thing; it might be worth trying a few of the available apps for iPhone/Android without the external microphone... they seem to have better microphones than the timers and may be able to pick up the shots without using an external mic.

The problem with phones is that they are phones and want to do other stuff when they feel like it. Your user apps will likely run at a lower priority than the core phone apps. The short version: you are gonna miss shots sometimes. Perhaps if your phone is rooted (is that even a thing with apple stuff?) and you may be able to change the priority. Maybe tuning off all the radios (airplane mode) GPS and any other unessential apps it may work with the emphasis on may.

[AWLAZS]

7 hours ago, Neomet said:

Thanks for the effort and helpful input Paul.  Ray, I was just referencing your comment about being told your club would not have to anything to accommodate PCC, and trying to keep this thread on an admittedly narrow track.  I appreciate everything you are doing for PCC at your club.  What I am trying to do here is to focus on some tech way to make ROing PCC shooters easier for ROs  through tech, either adjusting sensitivity or some low cost modification to timers or some way I don't even know about.  

 

I have messed around with timer sensitivity.  At my range with the two types of timers, I have I would get all kinds of echo with my open gun.  I don't think adjusting the timer sensitivity between shooters is the way to handle missing shots on the timer.  I also believe the use of a phone to time is a bad idea. They are expensive and I find them less user-friendly than a timer.  You know I think its a gun issue. You want to go at it from another angle have you tried contacting the companies that make the timers we use now? They might have an answer for you?

 

[Neomet]

Great ideas.  Maybe a timer with the ability to have presets for sensitivity and or a directional mike would work.  I will try fiddling with our presets first to see how much it helps the issue.  Thanks!

 

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: We had 4 PCC's on my squad Saturday and not one problem with picking up the time. Like I said above just make sure how far away you can get and still pickup the shots. The sound goes up and to the right. Head height and to the right works great. We use different timers and this works. Thanks, Eric