MarkL Posted November 5, 2002 Share Posted November 5, 2002 When the timer buzzes and and I happen to look for the front sight, I think I often look over the gun, and don't pay attention to the rear sight. Consequently, my misses are typically high. I am right handed/left eye dominant. Should I try to lower my head or raise the gun? I have tried both and not convinced one is better than another yet. What is the technical take on this? TIA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted November 5, 2002 Share Posted November 5, 2002 Sounds like you need to develop your index. You need to able to draw the gun and immediately "find" the sights on target. With a well-developed index, you'll be able to put the gun on a pre-determined target with your eyes closed. How to get there? Dry fire. Draw to a relatively small target as slow as it takes to have the sights perfectly aligned on the target. 50-100 times a night. Don't pull the trigger, just get the sight picture right. When it starts to work, whittle the time down. Let us know how you do. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted November 5, 2002 Share Posted November 5, 2002 And pay attention to those shoulders. Before I had this habit of dropping my head (to meet the FS) and at the same time unconciously raising my shoulders (which raised the RS ruining my index). Try this, assume your shooting stance and grip and get a sight picture. Pay attention to what muscle group is tensed and try to relax it. Without moving anything related to holstering your gun, hoslter it now. Relax your hands at your side then do a relaxed draw (slowly). Now how's the FS in relation to the RS and where is it pointing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 5, 2002 Share Posted November 5, 2002 The 12th Commandment: Though shalt raise thy sights to thine eyes, not lower thy eyes to thine sights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted November 5, 2002 Share Posted November 5, 2002 I must have missed the 11th Commandment, don't leave me hanging! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted November 6, 2002 Share Posted November 6, 2002 Do unto others, before they do unto you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted November 6, 2002 Share Posted November 6, 2002 I thought it was, "To remain pure, thou shall not shoot Open." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted November 6, 2002 Share Posted November 6, 2002 Or was it "TRUST in yourself like you TRUST in Me and then YOU shall SEE". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted November 6, 2002 Share Posted November 6, 2002 "Shoot A's fast to win" I forget who said it but was the response on How to win at IPSC? or the 11th for me As stated don't move your head to draw/shoot fast. Except to the next target. If your head is moving and the gun is moving and the target is moving that makes it real hard. Get a tape like Matt Burketts or tape the best shooter you know. Then have a buddy watch you or tape yourself and as stated also practice a lot to perfect your draw and sight alignment. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 "Thou shalt not get caught." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 Admit nothing, deny everything, make counter accusations. Oh yeah, dry fire. Every night. Whether you want to or not. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRM Posted November 29, 2002 Share Posted November 29, 2002 What do you do when you hear a loud noise? I have witnessed a few A.D.’s at matches and most people (even the top guys) “DUCK” It’s the body’s natural instinct to hunker down. Even when you box, most people have their “head down and shoulders up”. So I guess it comes down to what type of shooting you are trying to do. If you are into precision shooting, head up is fine. It works well for Doug Koenig, BE and others. But for tactical/defensive use, I’d rather exploit the body’s natural instincts as opposed to suppressing them. Since you are going to duck in a fight anyway, why not just go there? Stay safe, (Edited by DRM at 9:27 am on Nov. 29, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted November 29, 2002 Share Posted November 29, 2002 Holy crap, I'm readin' this thread and lol thinking you guys are some TDMFs! Mark, Often, the body-mind's natural responses are not the most appropriate for the situation. Think about tensing up, for example. Leaving that aside for a moment, try imagining your rear sight is really a window you must look through to see what's outside, (which is your front sight). be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRM Posted November 29, 2002 Share Posted November 29, 2002 What's a "TDMF" ?? Stay safe, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 I think I've got the "MF" part figured out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted December 3, 2002 Share Posted December 3, 2002 "I think I've got the "MF" part figured out." lol! Thread-driftin' Okay, it really shoulda been TDMF's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted December 3, 2002 Share Posted December 3, 2002 Quote: from Duane Thomas on 1:35 pm on Nov. 5, 2002 The 12th Commandment: Though shalt raise thy sights to thine eyes, not lower thy eyes to thine sights. What Dwayne said... Crouching = Stressing = Slow Shooting Tactical Correctness aside, shooting with relaxed shoulders with one's head in a erect, natural position, is faster and easier. I, of course, learned to shoot in the "vulture" style. (Why? Because I'm a certified, trained killer and I've got a $.25 diploma to prove it.) All the "vulture" did was hold me back. Don't let yourself get in the habit. It's hell to unlearn. My 2 pesos, E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRM Posted December 3, 2002 Share Posted December 3, 2002 If we can keep the focus of the thread on technique for a minute (as opposed to name calling) I would like to try and make a point... In a simple search for the truth (in this case, finding out what head position works best for your type of shooting), one can look at the World Shoot Off Championships (small steel targets shot "Man vs. Man" style). In that venue, I don't know of ANY top shooter who shoots with his head up and shoulders down. Further, the Stock Gun shooters seem to drop their heads even more, maybe because they have no scope or optic (iron sights are lower) and when the gun is held lower in front of the chest, the recoil is better controlled. I have even noticed guys like Barnhart (and even Leatham) seem to be droping their heads lower these days. Stay safe, (Edited by DRM at 11:56 am on Dec. 3, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted December 3, 2002 Share Posted December 3, 2002 DRM is certainly right in that many of the top x at big IPSC matches seem to subscribe to the crouch position (head down, shoulders up, very tense looking) & technique. The best placed Standard shooter at the WS who I observed doing that was #10 Oliver Damm. All of the higher placing shooters that I observed (and especially all the top USPSA shooters; DRM: that's Leatham, Voigt, Avery, Strader, Garcia) have a very clear heads up, shoulders down, relaxed posture. My personal conclusion was that both can be worked well (some of the crouchers are muchmuch better shooters than myself), but the observation stands that the top of the top use heads-up-shoulders-down. The *truth* on this subject may not be out there.... --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted December 3, 2002 Share Posted December 3, 2002 DRM, I am not name-calling. I was referring to *my* impeccable combat training, where I learned the "vulture" and in my ignorance, made it my one and only shooting technique. My last input on the subject: The " headdown/crouch/vulture/whateverthehellyoucallit" position may be just as fast as heads up, but I really feel that some of the tactical baggage (shooting in a strained position) that comes with the technique is not conducive to speed. This is just based on some coaching from my local GM. Your mileage my vary. Knowing what I know now, if I was starting into the shooting game, I would bypass the crouch and stand upright. Do I speak "The Truth?" Of course not. It's just my personal preference based on my temperment. That's all folks. E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Sharp Posted December 3, 2002 Share Posted December 3, 2002 There are quite a few pictures at jerrybarnhart.com and practicalshootingacad.com if anyone cares to take a look at the actual head position of Ron or Jerry when shooting. Looks like the head is "down" to me. Todd and Doug seem to shoot with the head up at times but the promotional video our training cadre just watched from Blackwater showed Todd shooting from various positions and it seemed his head was "down" when shooting and up when moving. IIRC, Ron's instructions during a class in this area several years ago concerning building your platform, letting your body manage recoil and related matters went something like this. Head in front of shoulders, shoulders in front of hips, hips in front of knees and knees in front of toes, so that you acheive a relaxed, balanced but forward lean, to help you manage recoil without choking the life out of the weapon. This posture is also coached by instructors viewed as experts in other weapon systems as well, ie; rifle, shotgun, subgun, etc. Frank Garcia taught a class in this area approximately 3 weeks ago, I didn't get to attend but a friend did and relayed this info. The basic posture taught was the same as Ron's, (mod iso is mod iso) but one thing that was said was, to help you get into this posture/platform/whatever you want to call it, try pushing your chin into the target, this will cause your head to move out in front of your toes, which will bring everything else into the right plane. Now, for me to do that, requires that I do one of two things, A) bring my shoulders up or my head down, I have to do one of those in order to bring my sights, limited/production gun, into my line of sight. I think the contradiction, if it is that, is guy's teach to shoot one way in a static environment but when the timer beeps and they start working the recoil, shooting on the move and all that...., they shoot a different way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Sharp Posted December 3, 2002 Share Posted December 3, 2002 I forgot, my mom told me the 11th commandment is, thou shall not whine! Does this make me an official TDMF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 3, 2002 Share Posted December 3, 2002 hmm...pretty interesting stuff. The Burner seems to take an aggressive stance. I often picture Leatham with his head down some (in my mind...drawn from some photo or two of him). In contrast, there is a photo of Leatham around here somewhere (from this years Nationals?) that show him with brass in the air. He couldn't be more relaxed. Burkett has a video clip on his website (from his new videos) of him...draw-fire-reload-fire. His head and shoulders don't move (nor does he start with them "pre-set"). This is something I look at in other shooters. I haven't seen enough of the big-dogs to draw any conclusions though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRM Posted December 3, 2002 Share Posted December 3, 2002 EricW, I was not reffering to anything you said (I actually gotta chuckle out of your "Certified Killer" diploma ). I was referencing the TDMF thing... I think for shooting a "Standards Drill" or any type of precision shooting, the heads up thing is fine. My point was that for more aggressive shooting, the heads down is more natural and the FASTEST guys I know seem to be going more "heads down" as of late. Stay safe, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted December 3, 2002 Share Posted December 3, 2002 DRM, would you give us a few names for the *fastest guys* you are referring to? That's always illustrative... --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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