Head Position

[Flexmoney]

He is a picture of the Burner.  Certainly he is in a position that he has to "get into".

Notice the bend in the knees, however.  Perhaps he is moving and shooting.  Also notice that his head is up.  He is looking straight out of his eye sockets.  (Could be lots of reasons...might even be posing for the camera in this shot.)

This stuff really spurs questions of recoil management (is their such a thing) and body type (size, leverage).  Perhaps that should be a seperate thread?

(Edited by Flexmoney at 6:43 pm on Dec. 4, 2002)

[Flexmoney]

Paul,

This is a good point but I'm not sure how one would train to be un-natural,  "Maybe the "natural" (possibly ingrained thought or habit) way isn't the best? "

lol...that one is easy.  You just train until the the un becomes the natural.

It's the same way I can dribble a basketball and shoot the hook with my left hand (I'm a righty).  It is the same way you don't fall into your wrestling opponent when he gives you a quick head pop.  The same way that we have learned to keep our eyes open when the gun goes off.

This is turning into a good discussion.  Let keep it rolling.

[benos]

Flex,

"You just train until the the un becomes the natural."

That's good stuff Flex. Like your golf swing for example. If you handed someone a set of clubs (let alone one club) and told them to let their body figure out how to hit the ball powerfully and accurately on it's own, they'd flounder for decades.

Paul,

What's a "smoker"?

And whewhoo! The Fredo is on the board!

[George D]

When a gun is raised to the shooting position it is natural that the shoulders will raise. To keep the same relationship between the shoulders and the ears one would have to extend one's neck into a rather un-natural position. Isn't this what Detlef is referring to with regard to the photos of Miculek and Barnhart? The lowering of the eyes by tucking the chin closer to the chest would seem to be a separate issue.

[Ron Ankeny]

Actually, some head positions may seem very unnatural for some folks but they come rather easily for the rest of us. Take the following head position for instance. Some of you may think it very difficult, but I find it quite comfortable.

Warning: Offensive Cartoon

Ha, call me a TDMF will ya.

(Edited by Ron Ankeny at 8:57 pm on Dec. 4, 2002)

[George D]

Ron,

You must have to smooth the sharp edges on your shooting glasses before you adopt this head position.

Ouch

(Edited by George D at 2:03 pm on Dec. 5, 2002)

[Duane Thomas]

Looks to me like Jerry is shooting through a chest-level port. I'd really like to see "the rest of the story" on that one. I know for a fact this isn't his default stance.

[Ron Ankeny]

Duane:

I have the Burner Series of tapes. The most aggessive stance in the series is probably on tape 6 where he does the live fire drill while advancing toward the plate rack. I just looked at the tape again and he does have his knees bent, head low and forward. The harder he pushes, the lower he gets. But you are right, even in that drill going wide open he isn't as low as in Flex's picture.

[Flexmoney]

That pic is off a site with some propoganda...selling the Holosight.  It may be posed.

[Paul Sharp]

Flex,

I agree, with training you can make the un seem natural, I think your leading me on with the easy part.  I guess what I'm thinking about here is why try to make the un natural?  Why not optimize shooting from the position that naturally occurs?  It would seem that the time spent trying to un-program the natural would be spent more efficiently channeling the natural response into a trained response...., if that makes sense.  I'm tired and got hit a lot tonight.  If we take the golf analogy, even though the act of swinging a club isn't a natural everyday movement, there is a way to swing the club that takes advantage of the bodies natural motions.  Rather than swing in a way that causes the body to fight against itself.  As Brian said, one can flounder for years, particularly if the athlete is moving in a way that is not kinetically sound.

Ron,

You are the official TDMF!  

Brian,

A smoker is a warmup fight.  Its an old school boxing term.  They attempt to replicate the conditions of the match, same time, day, and everything.  The manager will invite as many people as possible to duplicate crowd noise and such.  This way the new guy gets used to fight conditions and how his physiology is going to respond before its the real thing.  Interesting story, a friend told me that during his smoker he noticed that he couldn't hear his corner because he kept getting distracted by the other guy's corner.  One of the many things one needs to be aware of before getting in there.  Thats pretty much it, a replication/simulator type thing.  I guess you could call it a dry run...., with bruises.

Detlef,

Now I see what you are talking about.  I think in the picture of me, which was taken over a year ago, the perspective might be a little skewed because the photographer is shorter than me.  My left arm is higher than my right arm, that is part of the process of getting my left hand rolled over.  I think that makes sense..., like I said I'm a little beat right now.  Good point concerning Daniel, (I think I'm doing it too in that pic) having his head tilted down.  I know D.R., like a lot of instructors, tells the shooter to point the chin at the target that way your face is erect.  Its just too hard to see everything you need to see if you are looking up/through your brow.  

Just for clarification, when I say head down I'm talking about this, while sitting erect, push your chin forward towards the screen, this will cause your head to come "down" and out in front of your lower body, helping to initiate the forward lean thing.  Thats what I mean when I say head down.  Is that what you (or anyone else) thought I meant?  Or did you think I meant actually having your head "tilted" towards the ground as in looking down?

[Flexmoney]

Paul,

Yes...much easier said than done.

---------------

Seems like we are all on the same page with the chin up thing?

---------------

The gun position may be a body-type thing?  I know that I don't shoot with my arms highier than parallel.  If I raise them highier, I lose leverage on the gun.

---------------

On the tension.  I feel that I have way more tension in my stance than I would like.  I kinda work with it right now (as has been suggested here).  I think that I would be better served, in the long run, without it.

I remember shooting the Bianchi Plates earlier this year (eight strings of six plates, going back to 25 yards).  Must have been the last stage...tired and hungry.  I had never shoot them before and I didn't have a lot riding on the match (no pressure to win).  I was in a zone to notice some stuff.

What I noticed was that by the time I got to the last strings, my stance was getting harder to hold.  It wasn't from the wieght of my tupperware and a ten round mag of 9mm, it was from the tension that I have in my stance.

Somewhere around here are some post where they talk about our host...at the real Bianchi Cup.  I don't know the circumstances, but he ended up shooting a "large number" of runs at the plates...from the 25 yard line...without missing.

There is little doubt in my mind that he was able to keep hitting those plates because his stance lacked tension.

[DRM]

T-Boned??   "FAST FREDDIE" is that really you?  Good to hear from you boy!

Where I come from, if the head is LOWERED then it is down (has to be) as opposed to UP where it is higher (ala Doug Koenig).  It seems like you guys are saying that Burner's head is up (Duh?).  That seems like "redefining of terms" based on past history, video tapes and such to me…  

I don't know how anyone can say Barnhart's head is not down, unless you are referring to chin position (face more towards the ground).  But chin position depends on the length of your chin (look at Jay Leno for example).

Now as for Paul's photo, his head is NO lower than Burner's.  His arms are higher (especially the left), but not his head.  

In the other photo we see 110# Daniel Horner (a testament to the FIST-FIRE technique ).  

Yes, he is lower and his arms are up.  Hey, he's just a skinny little runt! .  If he raises his head up the recoil will drive him rearwards.  This shooting position has proven itself to work quite well, as evidenced by his runner up spots at the World Shoot Off's in both Stock Gun and IDPA this year.  He even took out Everett Brunelle and Mark Hanish (the guy who won the Limited Nationals “Man vs. Man” shoot off this year) in the finals.  Now, how’s that for a shooting stance that doesn’t work?

Stay Safe,

D.R. Middlebrooks – Director

Tactical Shooting Academy (TSA)

http://www.TacticalShooting.com

[Detlef]

"If he raises his head up the recoil will drive him rearwards"

Now you've GOT to be kidding, right???

--D.

[Ron Ankeny]

I am getting confused, probably because of my normal head position, lol. It would really be beneficial if someone (Duane, Flexmoney?) would sum this up.

I am not a high zoot pistolero, but I have spent a small fortune purchasing instructional materials from Burkett, The Burner, Matt Burkett, and so on. I also spent a few dollars getting instruction from Ron Avery.

In watching hours of video tape, it seems to me like the faster and harder these guys go the more weight forward head down they become, but they don't go to extremes. In some cases, the change is very subtle.

The Burner talks about getting "more aggressive" with his stance and that translates into a little more bend in his knees and sometimes in his arms. Matt talks about the differences in his stance and there are pictures in his manual. Matt wrote about being more upright when shooting standards than when going WFO in a speed shoot. I have watched Avery shoot and his stance is described earlier in another post. In fact, Paul's description of "head down" is exactly what Avery teaches.  When Avery really cranks it on there is a very subtle change, nothing radical, just like the other guys.

So, what am I missing and what's new? Is this thread really nothing more than an exercise in clarifying terminology?

[FreddyTbone]

Gentlemen,

Prepare to be T-boned...............

All BS aside, the Death Dr. is correct about a few things..........i.e.  Jerry's shooting position does reflect what the Dr. is describing in his Fist Fire technique........This may not agree with Brian's idea of the ideal shooting stance or ready position or firing position.....but what so many of you are forgeting, is that different situations require different shooting positions..........for example I tend to promote a more relaxed and fluid starting position for just about any type of shooting, whether it is IPSC, NRA, or Steel.....but some disciplines can be more attacked than others....such as IPSC and some types of steel shooting like the World Shoot Off.     The bottom line is, that there is no bottom line.........so for you spounges out there......don't take all of this so seriously, and don't find so much conviction in such subjective ideas.    Jerry is an extreme example of aggresive shooting.....and remember that Jerry's career is training the most elite special forces we have, not shooting matches anymore......so from that perspective he is a perfect blend of competitive shooter and combat fighter....bringing his skills as one of the all time great action shooters to the real world operatives.

How's that Bone feel?

[FreddyTbone]

Hey Big Daddy E.

Please do something about that   "Gatherer" thing on my post.......I am starting to lose it!  I am not sure what I might do.....what I might say.....

[DRM]

---

Quote: from Detlef on 9:08 am on Dec. 5, 2002

"If he raises his head up the recoil will drive him rearwards"

Now you've GOT to be kidding, right???

--D.

---

Nope...

The head position determines your center of gravity.  It's heavy, full of blood and brians (well, some of us have less gray matter than others! ).  So, moving it around greatly affects your weight distribution on the toes and balls of your feet.

Little Daniel actually shoots a .45 well for his small frame (he made CDP Master with a Glock 21).  Head position is very important, as is the grip and stance, especially for his frame.

Stay safe,

D.R.

http://www.TacticalShooting.com

[Paul Sharp]

"Seems like we are all on the same page with the chin up thing?

---------------

The gun position may be a body-type thing?  I know that I don't shoot with my arms highier than parallel.  If I raise them highier, I lose leverage on the gun."

Definitely on the same page.  I don't want my arms above parallel either for the same reason.

We have kind of moved into the tension aspect and its affect on our shooting and that to me is the key issue in this discussion.  It seems the head/shoulders move as an unconcious response to; A) The need for speed   anxiety/nerves/fear

The reason I have been thinking about this a lot lately,  is I kept noticing the same thing in most of the top shooters that many here have noted, that and a comment I'll share later and I really had some things to think about.  Couple that with attending two classes where the instructors would "test" the shooting platform of the guys by smacking, rapidly the hands of the shooters after they had presented an empty weapon, this was done to see if they would move backwards as a result of the smack.  If they didn't move the instructors hypothesis was/is their platform is sound for high speed, reactive type shooting.  Without a forward lean and forward pressure guy's would go back on their heels and the arms would go up above parallel.  I realized this might be something worth looking into.

I had a conversation with an instructor that sparked a lot of this thought process for me.  He has taken many classes with one of the guy's mentioned in this thread, his words to me were, "tension is going to happen, so rather than fight it, embrace it and make it work for you"

Which brings me back to this, if under tension/stress I will unconciously move into this posture, why not start there and learn to operate at an optimal level while there?  Sort of embracing it rather than fighting it.

"So, what am I missing and what's new? Is this thread really nothing more than an exercise in clarifying terminology?"

I don't think so..., what exactly do you mean by that?

Honestly, if we were in the same room, Detlef, Flex or someone could standup and say, "this is what I mean" and assume the position, than everyone else would say "thats what I was talking about, except I do this a little different", that would take about 2 minutes, than we could spend the rest of the time working out the tension, natural/un-natural thing that this has morphed into.

[Flexmoney]

Here is Jerry:

Chin up, head down, upper body leaning into the gun/recoil.  This is an aggressive stance.  There is tension in his traps, lats and shoulders.  

(Edited by Flexmoney at 4:31 pm on Dec. 5, 2002)

[Flexmoney]

And here is one of Phil...he has the gun up highier, less stress in the neck.

[Paul Sharp]

Is it just me or does that picture of the Burner with all that brass in the air make you want to go shoot!

(is it wrong?)

[DRM]

You mean Passively or Aggressively shoot?

(I'm leaning more towards passive aggressive lately! )...

D.R.

http://www.TacticalShooting.com

[TravisT]

Ron-LOL!

FC- Keep droppin’ them bones on ‘em!

Flex- We were doing the walk through at some Major a year or so ago, and Jerry (who, believe it or not, has an absolutely killer sense of humor), starts posing and making fun of his old crunched up, combat crouch! That little pic just reminded me of that. It was quite a hoot watching him take the piss out of that style

D- It’s been a couple of seasons since we shot together, but I remember being impressed with your form and posture. Very clean headsup...not many have the trust to shoot with the brakes off.

TT

[Paul Sharp]

"How's that Bone feel?"

"FC- Keep droppin’ them bones on ‘em!"

We are talking about training...., right?

[InTheBlack]

This is the kind of thread where the quality of this forum shines.  The photos are great.  Anyone want to create a photo section with pics to compare & contrast the two positions:

I realize that I have to do "Chin up, head down" because all I'm doing is dropping downwards.

I think that the head up is probably ergonomically & physiologically/kinesiologically superior to the Vulture.

But in a fight, you _will_ drop your chin to protect your head.  And those who train for real combat probably shouldn't screw up that reflex.

Wing Chun emphasizes "rounding" the shoulders & sinking the chest, which gives you a couple inches more reach forwards, while pulling your body away from the enemy.  Its too late at night to analyze why that just popped into my mind.  I wonder if that might also raise your arms a bit, making it easier to get the sights right in front of your eyes.