over grip problem...HELP

[badjuju]

This is my first post here so HI everyone.

I am a law enforcement firearms instructor I have been instructing for about 5 years.

I have a problem with one of my investigators and I wanted to toss this out to see what suggestions I get.

The investigator is a small build female left handed shooter. We shoot Glock Model 23 40 cal. She first started shooting at a police academy and the department that hired her issued her a 45cal. She has small hands and to me that seems like the wrong gun for a small female shooter.

Anyway, she comes to me and we start qualifying with our Glocks. I noticed that beyond 10 yards she shoots very high right. She often misses the target all together (paper and all). Close in she is still high right but the amount of the error is reduced by close distance and she can hit CBM.

After observing her we determine that she over-grips her gun. She gets a good sight picture and just as she pulls the trigger to shoot the strong hand grips the gun so hard that the rounds go high right. I have tried to show her that you can actually shoot the gun with only your thumb and trigger finger. Her hands are too small to do that well. But I wanted to demonstrate that the tighter grip right at the point of pulling the trigger is not needed to make the gun work.

I have tried to hold the bottom three fingers of her strong hand out from the grip with my hand and she pulls so hard with those three fingers that they almost come out of my hand.

She is now aware of the problem but she has so much muscle memory that she can not control it. At this point it is involuntary.

I was going to start out with having her dry fire the Glock with a penny placed on the front sight. I will have her do this over and over everyday before her shift and again just before she goes home. I will have her do this until she can consistently pull the trigger and not make the coin fall off. I was than going to take her to the range and use some dummy rounds in her mag. I will still place the penny on the sight but she will not know if there is a round in the chamber or not.

I know I need to train that muscle memory out of her and it will take thousands of trigger pulls with no over-gripping to create a new memory.

Do any of you have any other hints to cure this problem?

Thanks

[Stuck in C]

I hope someone comes up with something. I have the same problem whenever I switch from my G34 9mm to the harder recoiling and larger gripped G21 .45. I start squeezing harder just as I press the trigger, which throws the shot off. The problem disappears (or at least is less) after a few rounds of 9mm again. I seem to have some mental problem where my unconsious brain tells me I have to grip harder with the .45 to control it.

[Loves2Shoot]

First, muscles have no memory I sure wish they did.

Second, It is hard to overgrip the gun with the strong hand if you take the strong hand thumb out of the equation. I've gone as far as taping a small thumb tack to shooters weak hand so they feel it if they grip down with the strong hand. Have her visually veryify that she isn't sqeezing down with her strong hand thumb (no white in the knuckle.)

Third, grip tape might be very helpful for her, even if she only puts it on the weakhand side. Glocks can be hard to hold with no grip enhancement.

Good luck

[Flexmoney]

First,

I think the G23 is about the worst gun a woman could use. That small of a gun, with snappy 40 ammo, is about the worst thing to try to keep a handle on.

Chances are, she is gripping it so tight with the strong hand as that is the only way she knows how to keep it from flying out of her hand. That technique works for her...so it is the current default.

(we have a few local females shooters that use it...I just feel terrible for them...I am usually not one to say this, but it is the wrong gun for them)

Anyway...

Instead of trying to retrain all that muscle memory...just replace it with something new. The coin trick is a good start.

If you can get her focus shifted over to a different "desired result", then that should help. I like to get away from having them hit the target as the result. If you can get the shooter to picture "seeing what the sights are doing as the bullet leaves the barrel"...that might be a good goal. They don't even need a target for that. In fact, I would have them shoot at the berm...not a clump of dirt of a rock...just the berm/backstop.

(It also might be a good idea to use both plugs and ear muffs.)

[badjuju]

We were thinking about that option also. I was going to take her to an indoor range that has different guns to rent and try a 9mm that has a thinner longer grip and less kick. I was looking for any quick fixes people might know of. I have a feeling this might take a lot of work and a lot of rounds to fix. Good thing I like shooting.

[DougCarden]

Been there, done that brother, except it was with beretta 9mms.....

.22, .22,.22. I had my smaller stature officers demonstrate the basics with gun, then had them shoot the .22. Once they understood the basics and didnt, in their own mind, have to fight the gun, then they relaxed and could apply the basics. If you have access to a Advantage arms .22 top end that would help immensely, or reload some lighter loads so she can get used to the gun. Dont forget that they are stressed as well to produce the results so they can stay on the job. If you need anything else PM me. Doug Carden

[Nik Habicht]

The investigator is a small build female left handed shooter. We shoot Glock Model 23 40 cal. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My other half meets that description as well. I recently got her playing with Glocks --- and she shot the 17 much better than the 19. Her comments were that the 17 was easier to grab --- because of the different grip geometry. Any chance of getting your investigator transitioned to a 22? Getting a grip reduction on a 23? Getting one of the firms like ROBar to take a 22 and chop it's butt to 23 size?

[Greg G]

I agree with Doug C, in my experience (which isn't all that much) light loads a heavy gun and getting used to just letting the gun recoil and return helps a lot of shooters.

[Skywalker]

badjuju,

I'd go the different gun road.

I mean, it might be that the grip angle of the Glock is simply wrong for her.

I know this because it happens to me too: if I shoot a 1911-style gun, I can draw and present the gun with closed eyes, and it naturally comes out levelled and aimed, the grip angle is perfect for my stance.

When I try this with a Glock, it invariably ends pointing upwards: I mean, the front sight sticks out of the rear sight windows by 3/4 of its height.

It's a matter of the grip angle: the Glock one doesn't suit my hands as well as a 1911-style.

She gets a good sight picture and just as she pulls the trigger to shoot the strong hand grips the gun so hard that the rounds go high right.

It might be that your investigator slightly cants down her wrists, to get a good sight picture, but when she has to shoot, maybe the desire of consciously contrasting the recoil of the gun leads her to lock her wrists in what's her natural stance, and the gun ends up pointing high.

By all means, I'd suggest her to try different guns, to find the one that "naturally" points POA without forcing a stance to acquire a sight picture.

Try and have her assuming her natural firing stance with closed eyes (i.e. gun at eye level, whatever arms and wrists position feels the most natural for her), and see upon opening eyes which gun gives her a perfect sight picture: that one should have the right grip angle for her.

HTH.

[Barlin]

After the above advice, and you have a good gun match, it may just take a bucket full of ammo. You should search this sight for information on flinching, but for most beginners, just getting used to the roar and kick is the first step.

[badjuju]

The thing is she is not a new shooter. She has just been allowed to continue along with this bad habit. She is now in a small department that has the time to deal with the issue. I think she is lucky to be in a unit that is willing to dedicate the time, effort and money to fix it. She is an outstandig investigator and worth my effort. I just hope she dedicates as much time and effort to dealing with this as I will.

We are going to an indoor range in the area that has a variety of guns to try out and we sill see if some of them fit better than others.

Do the different glocks out there have different grip diameters? If they do and one would fit I would like to stay with Glock since I can fix them and maintain them.

Thanks for all the advice. I like this BB so far.

[EricW]

Will the department allow her to carry a 9mm? Both the G19 and the XD are very mild-mannered.

Have her take a look at the XD, it's grip is substantialy smaller than the Glock.

[DougCarden]

If you have to go to an indoor range, have her use plugs and muffs! Better to use a motorcycle helmet.....you get my drift! Good luck, Doug

[Nik Habicht]

Do the different glocks out there have different grip diameters?  If they do and one would fit I would like to stay with Glock since I can fix them and maintain them.

Thanks for all the advice.  I like this BB so far.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Diameters --- with the exception of the G20/21 and the G36 compared to the rest of the line, not exactly. The different frame size guns (23,22,and 27 in .40; 19, 17, and 26 in 9mm) do have different grip geometry --- so a 22 may fit her hand substantially better than a 23. Or not? Depends on her hand size and shape.....

If concealing a larger frame (because it fits the hand better) becomes a concern, ROBAR and Arizona Response Systems both offer grip reductions, where they actually remove the hump from the Glock's backstrap, along with the finger grooves from the frontstrap and grip shortening where they trim part of the grip frame length. Grip shortening would be sufficient to make Glock 23 mags work in a shortened 22. Usually, the companies performing the work request all mags to be used in the gun so they can test functioning with all of them. Whether the department is comfortable with custom mods to a gun to make it fit an officer is another story.....

[Pierruiggi]

Providing the supplied gun fits the shooter reasonably well, I think tons of dryfire is in order.

I know my greatest breakthroughs technique-wise were developing the ability to grip with 9 fingers and isolating my index finger for trigger manipulation; and maintaining the same amount of gripping strength before, during and after the shot.

[LimitedGirl]

I'm a female shooter so I may be able to give her some advice.

I think shooting accurately is a whole package, especially for women.

You need to standz right, grip right and pull the trigger right.

I'm not sure if over grip is her problem. She may put her trigger finger in wrong position and cause it pull over one side.

I would suggest her to practice trigger control use smaller caliber (22, 9mm). Better use glock because the same trigger system.

After trigger is ok, try to adjust her standz. Remember, standz is very important for women. I spent a few months to figure it out when I shot my 1911.

For the grip, she can grip hard, but it should be neutral. Some people say left hand should grip harder than right hand. That probably true if you want to shoot fast. However, for now, she should grip neutral first. Try to use your both hands cover the whole gun (grip portion) as much as possible. I hope you understand what I try to describe here.

One more thing, have more physical training on arms should help her gun control too.

Lily

[badjuju]

I'm a female shooter so I may be able to give her some advice.

I think shooting accurately is a whole package, especially for women.

You need to standz right, grip right and pull the trigger right. 

I'm not sure if over grip is her problem.  She may put her trigger finger in wrong position and cause it pull over one side.

I would suggest her to practice trigger control use smaller caliber (22, 9mm).  Better use glock because the same trigger system.

After trigger is ok, try to adjust her standz.  Remember, standz is very important for women. I spent a few months to figure it out when I shot my 1911. 

For the grip, she can grip hard, but it should be neutral.  Some people say left hand should grip harder than right hand.  That probably true if you want to shoot fast.  However, for now, she should grip neutral first.  Try to use your both hands cover the whole gun (grip portion) as much as possible.  I hope you understand what I try to describe here.

One more thing, have more physical training on arms should help her gun control too.

Lily

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We are pretty sure the problem is over-grip or Milking the gun. I think those two terms describe the same problem. Thanks for the tips though.

[badjuju]

Will the department allow her to carry a 9mm?  Both the G19 and the XD are very mild-mannered.

Have her take a look at the XD, it's grip is substantialy smaller than the Glock.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Since I am the rangemaster and trainer I can make the call on what weapons our people get to pack. I shot the XD at an IALEFI training in San Diego a couple of years ago and I liked that gun a lot. I am thinking of getting the XD-40 for myself as an off duty weapon. My only worry about that gun is the availability of holsters for it. I will have to look into it. I will also look at the G19.

Thanks

[GuildSF4]

Will the department allow her to carry a 9mm?  Both the G19 and the XD are very mild-mannered.

Have her take a look at the XD, it's grip is substantialy smaller than the Glock.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Since I am the rangemaster and trainer I can make the call on what weapons our people get to pack. I shot the XD at an IALEFI training in San Diego a couple of years ago and I liked that gun a lot. I am thinking of getting the XD-40 for myself as an off duty weapon. My only worry about that gun is the availability of holsters for it. I will have to look into it. I will also look at the G19.

Thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are a few made for this gun, Galco, Safariland Custom Fit, Fobus, and many of the custon shops will make one.

[EricW]

Will the department allow her to carry a 9mm?  Both the G19 and the XD are very mild-mannered.

Have her take a look at the XD, it's grip is substantialy smaller than the Glock.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Since I am the rangemaster and trainer I can make the call on what weapons our people get to pack. I shot the XD at an IALEFI training in San Diego a couple of years ago and I liked that gun a lot. I am thinking of getting the XD-40 for myself as an off duty weapon. My only worry about that gun is the availability of holsters for it. I will have to look into it. I will also look at the G19.

Thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you're near me, I'd be all to happy to loan you my XD Tactical and/or a spare G19 for eval.

I am VERY happy to hear that good sense is in abundant supply at your department, and you're going to help this officer get a gun that fits her. Don't ask me what the 5'4" 120lb officers do in agencies that mandate the G20/21's....

And I know this is self-serving, but try slapping some skid tape on. The XD is a good gun, but is practically unindexable for me w/o skid tape. If you're interested, I'll be happy to send you some samples for her to try. If griptape isn't your or her thing, take some brake cleaner and an industrial toothbrush to the grip and scrub the crap out of it. When plastic guns get molded, they put what amounts to Pam on the mold to get the plastic to release - leaving that oil almost embedded in the grip. Scrubbing that off will help substantially.

If you haven't already tried mixing in dummy shells with live rounds in her mags, you might give that a whirl.

[LimitedGirl]

I'm a female shooter so I may be able to give her some advice.

I think shooting accurately is a whole package, especially for women.

You need to standz right, grip right and pull the trigger right. 

I'm not sure if over grip is her problem.  She may put her trigger finger in wrong position and cause it pull over one side.

I would suggest her to practice trigger control use smaller caliber (22, 9mm).  Better use glock because the same trigger system.

After trigger is ok, try to adjust her standz.  Remember, standz is very important for women. I spent a few months to figure it out when I shot my 1911. 

For the grip, she can grip hard, but it should be neutral.  Some people say left hand should grip harder than right hand.  That probably true if you want to shoot fast.  However, for now, she should grip neutral first.  Try to use your both hands cover the whole gun (grip portion) as much as possible.  I hope you understand what I try to describe here.

One more thing, have more physical training on arms should help her gun control too.

Lily

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We are pretty sure the problem is over-grip or Milking the gun. I think those two terms describe the same problem. Thanks for the tips though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I understand that's over-grip problem, but the reason of over-grip is she wants to control the recoil. I did that before with my limited gun. I grip so hard and try to drive my gun down so that cause the unbalance pressure apply to the gun.

Especially when her hands can't totally cover the whole grip (I guess) and try to grip as hard as she can, the point of pressure may tip to one side.

If she can control the recoil better by good standz and right arms and grip position, she may be able to make her grip more neutral (release some pressure from the hands).

Lily

[Rockclimbg]

An equipment fix might be order, my better half uses a Sig 239, she has short fingers and does well with that gun and 1911 singlestacks.

another option might be a drill I've read about on this forum before:

When I find myself getting too "tight" on the gun, I just relax and shoot into the berm, feeling the recoil and watching the sights. It feels like a waste of ammo but it is relaxing and a great tool. It has helped my weak hand shooting a lot (although I still have a long way to go.)

Rockclimbg