Tactical Rant, sorta

[Patrick Sweeney]

Sharon Anne brings us back to the crux of the problem: the word "Tactical" means too many different things to too many people, and distracts us from the task at hand.

As a Match Director I'm looking at equipment definitions from the viewpoint of "Will drawing the line here make a single piece of equipment the decisive item that precludes  or heavily weighs against skill in the match results?"

And the problem is, especially with rifle, course design can change things drastically.

Sharon, how would you deal with optics on Limited rifles?

[xsrdx]

that happens to be my OPEN CLASS PARA ORDNANCE 9X23 RACE GUN

Huh?

I hear those race guns are notoriously reliable after you drag them through the mud and smack them against a door frame or brick wall a few times on the way to a gunfight.

No doubt your open gun is a formidable pistol, but for the purpose of this discussion it isn't "tactical" no matter how broad the interpretation.

I think the thread makes clear the intent behind a tactical or modified class. Not everybody gets it, and maybe that's the point.

[Patrick Sweeney]

Again, the differing model of Tactical enters the fray.  If "Tactical" means durable, then we need a durability test to apply to each firearm before the match begins.

If I can use anything that passes the durability test, you bet I'm going to have an armored red-dot.  Bring on the mud box, I'll take two seconds to wipe my optics after the beep.

We are conducting a shooting competition, not a re-enactment or procurement test.

[KyleL]

As for the 8-9 round rule, the new Remington 1100 Competition Master comes with a 22 incher and an 8 round tube. Pretty sweet piece.

And once again Tactical or not, call the class something else or tell those who want to use a comped pistol with an optic "NO".

There comes a time in every match directors life when he or she has to reach down and just say NO.

I do find this discussion very humorous, days of chat without really getting anywhere. Almost like the USPSA of past....... luckily for those of us who like three gun Voigt has stopped some of the stupidity.

God Bless America..... KyleL

[kurtm]

Ha Ha Ha:

Kyle has really hit it on the X! At some point in time A MATCH DIRECTOR will have to decide for himself/herself, and stop triing to have outside media do it for him/her!

Humor, Humor, Humor, I also have had a great time on this subject and have tried to keep it going. I would like to see at least 7 pages on this one!

For those of us that like 3 gun ther are pleanty of matches that we can go or not go to. If I don't like the direction a match takes, I can pick another. The last I will say on gear is that I(personaly) buy the gear for the most RESTRICTIVE match that I like and use it for all the rest. WOW only one set of gear!!!

Kyle the Remington sounds cool ....but then again I like all shotguns, the long, the hi cap and the small. I still do like the Length rule and not a round limit, but I can shoot them eigther way!!!

In closing, I would like to point out if you say RANT in the header people will!!!!! Good luck on the E9 deal Kyle!                                          KURT

P.S. Pat what has stopped you from shooting a match with your 14" border gun? I know of no rule saying to short.

[Flexmoney]

For those of us that like 3 gun ther are pleanty of matches that we can go or not go to.

Your 'my way or the highway' attitude sucks for us that are looking to get into 3-gun.  I am going under the assumption (dangerous word) that you run one of the larger 3-gun matches?  Sounds like it must fill up pretty well (for you to not care what others think).  I, for  one, would appreciate it if you could look at a bigger picture.  It sounds like there are five big 3-gun matches?  With five different sets of rules?

"United We Stand, Divided We Fall"

If I don't like the direction a match takes, I can pick another.

Maybe you can...but the rest of us can't do so very easily.  Are we SOL?

The last I will say on gear is that I(personaly) buy the gear for the most RESTRICTIVE match that I like and use it for all the rest. WOW only one set of gear!!!

Sounds about as easy as figuring out a new car lease (car lease...often a bad deal).

Kurt, you do make a good point on the title of the thread.

Patrick, you are killin' me with the "rant" & "pot-stirring" titles.  I end up doing a lot of reading and not much learning.    (But, I am sure I get something out of them...I doubt they have helped my scores much though.)

[xsrdx]

We are conducting a shooting competition, not a re-enactment or procurement test

You can pretend the game defines reality, or let reality define the game.

Limited class pistols and shotguns, and scoped semiauto/ auto rifles, are the standard arms for law enforcement and military operators. That's not by accident, nor is it strictly a function of cost.

Again - to many that means nothing, since all we're doing is gaming. To some, the distinction is important.

This has devolved into a circular discussion - 3 classes should be the standard, ala SMM3G and RM3G rules. Open, Modified aka Tactical, and Limited. The details are up to the match director regarding OAL, comps, bipods, capacity, etc.

IPSC won't make that change, and that's one of the reasons IPSC 3 Gun will continue to be less attractive than the "tactical" alternatives like the Viking3G, SMM3G, and the Raton match.

[Patrick Sweeney]

"You can pretend the game defines reality, or let reality define the game."

If we let reality define the game, then the only firearms allowed would be iron sight AR's (unless you're jump-qualified and in an elite unit)  M9's with ball, and Mossberg 590's.

Each stage will start with 20 pounds of gear worn and a 30 pound ruck, and on the start signal you drop the ruck and get to it.

Does not sound like fun to me.

Allowing shooters with fragile, untested and marginally reliable equipment to enter a match sounds to me like a good way to find out what works.

And when it doesn't, they'll change or improve.  But telling them upfront their gear isn't suitable because it fails an arbitrary determination of "practical" or "tactical,"  well, that sounds like the IDPA holster list to me.

I'm 6'4", 205, long arms and legs,  no fat, and every single holster on the list is torture for me to wear.  Why?  They all sit too high and cant into my ribs.  They must be practical for someone, but they aren't for me.  But if I want to shoot IDPA I must use an approved holster, even though they don't fit me, because "that's the list."

In real life I wear a bunch of different holsters, and the most comfortable aren't on the list.

We are running a shooting competition.  If we let it stray too far from reality it becomes a sterile exercise.  (See: Bianchi Cup)  If we stick too closely to reality it stifles progress.  You may not like comps, dots and hi-cap guns, but they exist, and work, because competitors made them work.

As for Rant and Pot-stirring, sorry about that.  I'll be more careful it the future.

[KyleL]

Flexmoney, I will answer for Kurt and if he dislikes it I am sure he will jump in to correct me.

If you are looking to get into three gun here is what you need to be ready for absolutely any tactical, limited, cool guy, or even open match.

Ar-15 Flat top with removable carry handle and an optic to slap on when needed. No comp just in case rules change in some of the matches.

Remington 1100 Competition Master or Shotgun of your choice with a barrel no longer than 22"

Pistol 40 or 45 High Capacity

Bladetech Belt holster with no speed cuts

Bladetech SOF Mag pouches for pistol and rifle

Viking Tactics Sling (just cause it is cool)

Knee pads.

Now you are ready for any match out there that I can think of. USPSA, SMM3G, SOF or whatever it is called, NC3GUN, Tenn 3 Gun, Colorado 3 Gun.

So Kurt Have I left anything out.. I think this will get most guys going.

So call it what you want. Tactical, non Tactical... Lets just shoot..

KyleL

[kurtm]

FLEX$:

My way or the highway? Ever heared of I.P.S.C.. U.S.P.S.A and I.D.P.A ? All 3 have different rules and exist on some level of "I sure don't like what------ is doing so I shoot-----." DON'T TRY TO PUT THIS OFF ON ME!! I.D.P.A. broke off of U.S.P.S.A. BECAUSE some people DIDN'T LIKE THE RULES!!!! Equipment race? All the equipment is different between the pistol sports, and I'M suposed to be the heavy here? Hey FLEX, which of the pistol sports do you play? If youy play them all, do you have different equipment for each  entity? I.E. blade tech for I.D.P.A. and ghost holster for U.S.P.S.A. If you do and have different equipment and are whinning on this post YOU ARE A HYPOCRIT!!!! 3 gun exist in different forms BECAUSE of the same reasons there are 3 different pistol only sports. WHY NOT YELL AT THEM ALSO???

Kyle, Right on except I would add an ace bandage or two and a realy cool set of glasses because they accent the cool sling!!                                        KURT

[Flexmoney]

Kurt,

I'm not making you the heavy...you state that if you don't like my rules don't come.  Too me, that comes off as harsh.  Puts me in the SOL section.

I'd like to see everybody get together so that there would only be one set of rules.  I don't give a $&*! who's rules are used.

Is there such a difference that the powers that be couldn't come together and figure out a standard division or two?  

[Flexmoney]

Kurt,

Another quick thing.  I am giving feedback to your position.  I am not attacking you as a person.  

Feel free to hurl all the names at me that you like.  I'd only ask that you do so off the boards.

[kurtm]

FLEXBUCKS:

First of all NON of these are "my" rules! I AM NOT saying your S.O.L, I'm saying vote with your wallet! If a certain match has rules people don't like, it will have to change or fold as no one will show up. Lets take the old S.O.F. match that morphed into WC3G. Thier rules have slowly changed over the years to allow some new technology such as compensator no longer than 3" no bigger around than1" and bi pods and of course the dreded TACTICAL class with those HORIBLE low power STURDY optics that has started ALL this cr#p. This match has been around for almost 25 years, ABOUT 15 YEARS LONGER THAN U.S.P.S.A 3 GUN NATIONALS ( this should serve as a reminder that a full set of TACTICAL rules has been in place longer than most people have been shooting 3 gun) It fills to capacity almost every year by March and the match is not held until September. They are doing something right!

As for ONE or TWO classes every body can agree with, THERE ARE!!!!!!!!!!! LIMITED OR STOCK IRON SIGHT DIVISION is the same across the board!!! From U.S.P.S.A. to W.C.3G.

OPEN IS OPEN ( run anything you can carry) at any of the matches that have it( all but W.C.3G.) Theres two, GOOD TO GO!! Tactical or modified class seem to be the stumbling block for the U.S.P.S.A. minded 3 gunners ( I remind you that of the big 5 matches only ONE uses that system, this speaks volumes of how that is percieved) Of the other 4 matches "tactical" is almost uniform in description with a few MINOR changes. I hope you can see my frustration with the "define tactical" when it really has been well defined by useage in the remaining 4 matches.

The problem I see that arrises Is that the U.S.P.S.A. crowd want to drive the rules. Gone would be the multi-gun stages I.E. carry all 3 with you and shoot all 3 durring the stage. I can hear the " thats not safe" already, except that it has been being done for the last 25 YEARS!!!! and safely too!!! How about the radical pistol holsters that won't retain a pistol under VIGEROUS MOVEMENT that are allowed under U.S.P.S.A.?? Gone are the run and gun stages in open terrain with jumping and crawling, and LETS NOT EVEN TALK ABOUT HOT REHOLSTERING in  a multi gun stage!!! The horror the horror!!! I think I'm a little off what we were talking about but TACTICAL has been defined. TO ALL OF YOU READING THIS.......PLEASE look up the rules in question and see if you don't agree, for the most part TACTICAL has been defined!!!

I would once again remind you that EVERYBODY did get together on the rules under U.S.P.S.C, and suddenly I.D.P.A poped up because people were unhappy with the AGREED UPON rules. Depending on the direction you are comming from, when it comes to 3 gun, will depend on if you like the rules or not for a particular match and never the twain shall meet! I am not saying you are S.O.L. I'm saying vote your consience with your money. In the immortal words of master Yodda... GO OR DO NOT GO THERE IS NO WHINE. By the way we got to page 7; good job at saying nothing at all, to all!!! INCLUDING MYSELF!!!

As for running one of the big matches I have indeed helped run a couple of them for the old S.O.F. and will be part of the  ROCKY MOUNTAIN 3 GUN MATCH And with a few modification to fit us, it will be run with the rules that have historicaly shown to be liked the best as pertaining to tactical. Open and Limited are of course welcome an those are the two we all seem to agree on, but I was NOT on the rule commity. THESE ARE NOT MY RULES..........BUT I LIKE THEM.           KURT                              

[kurtm]

HEY FLEXDINERO:

YOU ARE absolutly right!! the" YOUR MY WAY OR THE HIGH WAY" ATTITUDE SUCKS" IS GREAT FEED BACK IN A VERY POSSITIVE MANOR!!!!! THANKS!!!!!! KURT

[Flexmoney]

Kyle L,

Thanks for posting the equipment.  I found that helpful.

Kurt...here we go...

If youy play them all, do you have different equipment for each  entity? I.E. blade tech for I.D.P.A. and ghost holster for U.S.P.S.A. If you do and have different equipment and are whinning on this post YOU ARE A HYPOCRIT!!!!

While I wouldn't expect you to know, it is pretty common knowledge that I shoot a Glock...I shoot a Glock in any and all pistol sports...and I am perfectly happy running out of a fobus holster.  Your assumptions are off base!

3 gun exist in different forms BECAUSE of the same reasons there are 3 different pistol only sports. WHY NOT YELL AT THEM ALSO???

Nobody here is yelling...except for you.

(ahh...nevermind.  this is pointless)

[PacMan]

Never mind...I just deleted what I wrote, Kurt and Kyle said it all.

(Edited by PacMan at 6:51 am on Nov. 27, 2002)

[kurtm]

FLEXMONEY:

I, like Bill, have depended on the word IF. Since you DON'T swich gear for the pistol sports you are NOT being a hypocrit. ( notice I said "if you do" not "I assume you do") As for the gear thing, it seems you have picked gear twards the most restictive of the pistol sports (I.D.P.A.) and then use it in the others. This is the same thing I was saying for 3 gun! Buy gear based on the most restrictive rules of the matches YOU WOULD LIKE TO SHOOT. then you are good to go at the rest of them!! See you are at least 1/3 there already with the pistol gear you have.

Like PACMAN posted.  Start with the gear you have ( shoot in open if you have to) and see what works for you. Then decide on which way to go with gear.

Now to the crux of the matter, There IS a NATION WIDE SET OF 3 GUN RULES... under U.S.P.S.A. Like them or don't, they are there. Use them at your club or don't. Since the "other" matches are not run under these rules, you must kind of pick and choose what you like or don't like. Think of them like I.D.P.A. , G.S.S.F. , Biancci Cup, and Second chance. If you want to shoot them you will have to follow thier rules. IF YOU WANT CODIFIED RULES THEY ARE THERE! stay with U.S.P.S.A. Your call was right on the ....excuse the punn...MONEY....THIS IS POINTLESS. Sorry about the roasting, but the "your attitude sucks" kind of got me going.          KURT

[ErikW]

<speeding in from way out in left field>

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

kurtm seems to want to continue cater to the people who are currently shooting some of the bigger non-USPSA 3 gun matches.

Patrick seems to want to cater to the pistol shooters (USPSA, IDPA, unaffiliated, whatever) who want to get into 3 gun and the existing 3 gunners who want to do more events.

Why don't you just acknowledge that you seek different goals? Then you'll realize there's no need to debate a single route to different destinations.

[kurtm]

ERIK:

Great post !Some times we can't see the forest for the trees. I am talking about the large matches and I think you are right, Pat and Flex and George and .... well you get the idea, are talking rules for "club" matches and perhaps extending them to the larger matches as well. Since most clubs are U.S.P.S.A affiliated it makes sense to follow thier rules for 3 gun. If we drop the scope issue and have limited be IRON only, we effectively return to the OLD S.O.F. rules of 25 years ago. Any optic would be open. Belive it or not I agree with Pat that "tactical" should be iron only, and it should be called limited to avoid the pesky "T" word becuse the word has lost a direct meaning as CHIK1 so aptly pointed out. In this senario I.D.P.A. should define the "tactical" classes of 3 gun as this is more their orientation. As so aptly pointed out these entities have different destinations in mind and so the path will not be the same. In reguards to the "unsanctioned" matches now being run they are on thier own path too and thier destination will be in the direction ther M.D. chooses. I REALLY LIKE YOUR POST!!!!!! Kelly better watch out as you are a GREAT moderator too!!!   KURT

[KyleL]

Squabblers,

Below is a link to the rules for our match.

http://www.vikingtactics.com/3Gun/5th/MatchRules.htm

These rules are simple and have worked relatively well. Any problems with unauthorized gear has been picked up on by fellow shooters or RO's.

And of course anything that needs to be added can be added by the Match Director. Ultimately shooters need to understand the spirit of the game... Yes Game.

One addition to these rules. Pistol may only be retained by holsters organic retention devices. (no Duct tape or Bungees. No Bubble Gum either)

You will also note that weapons are carried muzzle down when moving about the range.. Much safer than muzzle up.

I wouldn't have added this but I would like to see us reach a Page 8... LOL

KyleL

[tim3gun]

the rules for the NC3gun sound easy and simple.

[kurtm]

Kyle:

They don't like your rules, they don't like Dan"s rules, they don't like the 2 Mike's rules and they don't like Blane's(ours)rules. Posting them only is going to irritate them more. That is why I suggested they stay with U.S.P.S.A and leave "tactical" to other entities. Thier blood pressure will surely be better for it!

Muzzle down? Heracy!! Unlike our leader Pat, I'm soooo short that even with my Ching sling tightened all the way my barrel would be in the dirt!!! Thank God for the Trojan company. I also am so over weight that once the barrle is down I kind of Tripod on it and can't move, but I still love the rule!!!!      Did we make 8 yet???  KURT

[SGDM]

Kyle said it best...spirit of the game.  Everyone is ranting about equipment rules, Tactical also means Stages.  The stages are what make a Tactical match.  No one will ever agree on a set of rules to govern a Tactical 3 Gun, that is what makes the game great.  You have to look at it like this,  Task and Purpose.  The Task is to provide a competitve, demanding, fair match.  The purpose is to insure the shooters have fun, learn a thing or two, and have at least 25 guns on the prize table!!  If you don't like the rules, pay your money so you can gripe about it while you are Blasting.  I have shot a few 3-Gun, to include the big international ones with 2-way pop ups.  I don't like some of the rules of USPSA, MM3G, IDPA, but we still go for the spirit of the game and to have fun.  That is the bottom line!  So you whiners suck it up and drive on!

[Blane West]

I have a question to ask the IPSC guys, in the IPSC rule book it says:

Your holster shall be able to retain your pistol during the following test: 5.3.8

A jump from a stationary start position over an obstacle 40 cm high. 5.3.8.1

And also while turning ninety degrees: 5.3.8.2

So my question is, all of the race holsters that I see  WILL NOT pass this test without some sort of strap or bungee. So shouldn't they have to start every stage with the strap or bungee in place?

The reason I bring this up is on the local matches that we run, I have a lot of people who think that my stages are to HARD because we make them: Reholster halfway through a stage, make them go prone with a rifle/shotgun etc. They all complain that their pistol will fall out, so MY stage was unfairly designed. My thought on it is, the rule book clearly says that your holster must retain your handgun so it's a poorly designed holster, not the stage.

Feedback?

SGDM,

Great post "Suck it up and drive on"

Email me:  west556@attbi.com

Take care,

-Blane

 

(Edited by Blane West at 4:55 pm on Nov. 29, 2002)

[AH6IP]

So, I open up my new Guns and Ammo magazine, and who's smilin mug appears, none other than KyleL holding a Rem 1100 Competition Master!!  Who'd of thunk it!  Yea I know, off topic, but hey, maybe the rant will change to sophisticated discussion---Nah!

BTW-Greg and Blane are right on with their assessments!  

(Edited by AH6IP at 8:05 pm on Nov. 29, 2002)

(Edited by AH6IP at 8:06 pm on Nov. 29, 2002)

(Edited by AH6IP at 8:07 pm on Nov. 29, 2002)