Tactical Rant, sorta

[George]

Hi Blane,

I guess that I would fall under the "IPSC Guy" heading.

I definitely agree that a holster has to hold a handgun without the shooter minding it's p's & q's for it. I learned that the hard way through my exerience with a Limcat Stealth holster that I have for my "thuddy 8 scooper". Dropped it so much at home dry firing, and bending over to pick up mags that I had to replace the C-More, ouch. Lock it, or lose it with that sucker. I wouldn't use it for aything but "stand & draw" stuff. Even locked, I don't really trust it

For three gun, I now use an old piece of (bleep) Ernie Hill leather I had from a ways back (Glock 17L). It's a speed draw cutaway design. I can crank down the tension screws and it really holds. I also like how easy it is to re-holster one-handed with the cutaway front, and muzzle peg locator on the old (ancient even) Ernie Hill design.

No matter what I prefer, if it covers the trigger guard safely, and holds the pistol in place under some abuse, then that's all that really matters for our purposes here (under IPSC rules anyway).

To that end, I too would like to see the holster actually tested more often, and rigorously in IPSC matches. I know my Ernie Hill rig will pass muster. I switched back to it because my high tech stealth rig would not, not without my constant attention anyway. I got tired of having to think about holster idiosyncracies all the time.

I wonder how many folks "Open" rigs would actually pass a real holster test. Go prone (real hard) with a long gun a few times, then see if the pistol is still there when you need it. I am sure that there are some high tech, skeletonized, quick detach, slick draw rigs that are safe, and really hold the gun when used properly, and I am sure that somebody is going to tell me about theirs now that I "spoke my piece". Myself,  I went back to leather and a friction fit because it works, and I don't have to worry (read think here) about it. End of story.

Regards,

(Edited by George at 8:47 pm on Nov. 29, 2002)

[kurtm]

BLANE:

Don't try to pick on gear here! Can you imagin how bad a guy like Cory would whine if he actually paid $200.00 for a match and was D.Q.ed right away with his "cool" hip replacement holster. Let these guys be and they will run under U.S.P.S.A. and drive pleanty of shooters to the rest of our matches.                          KURT

[sledgee]

Blane,

You knew I'd have to join up when you mentioned open class "holsters".

I used to design an occasional stage for RM3G, and mine were always 2 gun.  You'd think I'd required all open class shooters to shoot with a Bic pen 3 inches up their noses the way they whined about having to actually MOVE with a holstered pistol.

Pistol holsters are for holding your pistol while you do other stuff.  If that thing on your belt won't hold your pistol while you do other stuff, it's not a holster.

And that's not MY fault.

Simple.

Joe

(Edited by sledgee at 4:28 pm on Nov. 30, 2002)

[sledgee]

Hey, Kurt:

Looks like the cavalry arrived in the last week or so, but an excellent holding action until they did!

Many of us prefer 3 gun, and came to 3 gun, because it is primarily hard men shooting real guns.  We need not be ashamed of that.

The men who run big 3 gun matches are not generally UN types, so it only makes sense that individual match directors will each do things a little differently.  So be it.

The UN types who insist on uniformity can be safely ignored in 3 gun, I reckon.  At least it seems to have worked so far.

Oh, the He-man class is VERY cool.  I think I see your imprint on that...Sadly, I can't see the best sights ever put on a rifle (M1/M14) well enough anymore, so must use the AR15/ACOG option.  Ain't no He-man no more...gone and got old.

I've also recently moved to an 1100 from a Benelli, and my 20 3/4" Remington factory barrel couldn't meet the 1" rule with 8+1 tube.  So I went to the 7+1 tube.  Therefore, I fully support the 8-round maximum rule.  For everyone, everywhere, forever.

Keep thinking real-world.  Competition need not be irrelevant.  It just usually is.

Joe

(Edited by sledgee at 5:37 am on Dec. 1, 2002)

[kurtm]

Joe:

Thank goodness you all showed up to help!! You will always be a HE-MAN. You have brought to the fore the reason we have a "tactical class". Can't see um so good nomore!! Try going back to the wide sight blade and standard rear aperture, and try to keep both eyes open, might keep you in there a bit longer! Mend well and fast!!! BIC PEN??? COOL!                   KURT

[jkmccoy]

OK, I'm another USPSA/IPSC guy...

I won't comment on the "tactical" designation or the utility of that name (this time). But, there is obviously some serious disagreement regarding some of the equipment rules out there. Hopefully all of us are trying to promote a sport that we enjoy and are trying to reach a solution that will be best for the sport.

I'll accept that there are a number of shooters out there that compete in non-USPSA matches (who may not compete in USPSA matches) because they prefer the rules.  I would like to see 3-gun grow.  I would also like to see 3-gun grow under a unified set of rules (wait a second, I want to comment on that)...

Without trying to change any of the other sets of rules that exist (accepting that the match directors who are not U.N. types will not agree to a unified set of rules)...how could we change USPSA rules to attract more shooters to matches run under that set of rules? Apparently we need another division (essentially "limited" pistol, "limited" shotgun, rifle with one optic). Would the addition of this division (call it "modified" or whatever) attract a substantial number of shooters that now avoid USPSA matches?

Cheers,

[PacMan]

Holy sacred cow...this ranting has reached 9 pages!!!  what's so attractive about a set of unified rules?  I'm relatively new to 3-gunning, but don't think it's such a big deal.  Having unified rules won't get anymore shooters to join the sport.  Making it FUN is, IMO.  How about promoting a friendly, helpful environment, non-inmidating atmosphere to get the curious range-goers to come and shoot in one or two matches?  I can tell you that more people would get hooked into 3-gunning if there is a way for them to come in and shoot without feeling intimidated.

Sorry, I'm ranting off the Tactical topic.

Definitely no Open-Class holsters without some duct tapes.

(Edited by PacMan at 7:09 am on Dec. 1, 2002)

[xsrdx]

Many of us prefer 3 gun, and came to 3 gun, because it is primarily hard men shooting real guns.  We need not be ashamed of that.

And that essential truth (Thanks Joe - the COL would agree!)  is probably what limits the growth potential for 3 Gun. It's not a PC sport, it's tough to hide the combative nature of the game behind a veneer of civility, like IPSC and it's amoeba targets.

It's equipment intensive, requiring 3 full sets of gear for three entirely different firearms. It can get very expensive, especially for open class competitors.

Training can be difficult, not everybody has access to range facilities that allow them to practice all three disciplines under match type conditions.

It takes considerable dedication to be competitive - not unlike USPSA pistol, but with the added complexity of the two additional guns, each requiring  a unique and specialized skill set.

For those reasons, along with the lack of unity between the "tactical" and USPSA communities, 3 Gun will remain relatively small compared to "friendlier" shooting sports like Cowboy Action and Sporting Clays, or the  pistol components of IDPA and USPSA.

[kurtm]

PACMAN:

There it is, make it fun!!! Both Pacman and I were at a 3 gun match this weekend and here is a GREAT example of which he speaks! A man showed up with his two small boys ( about 7yrs old). He wanted them to see what we were doing, and build thier interest in shooting sports! We were shooting a all steel shotgun stage and upon seeing the kids with no glasses ( definet safety problem!) one of the U.S.P.S.A. guys who shoots open in our R.M.3G. matches ran over to them screaming for them to GET THE HELL OUT OF HERE, GO BACK TO YOUR CAR AND DON'T COME BACK HERE AGAIN!!! I know he had the safety of the kids in mind and that is great, but don't go screaming at kids and their dad who don't know! I promptly went over(even though I was in the hole to shoot) and explained why they needed glasses and then dug through my range bag ang got two pairs of safety glasses out and invited them back to watch. After that the U.S.P.S.A. guy would just glower at me and said something about if a spectator violates a range rule he should be ejected imediatly and that they wouldn't put up with that kind of sh#t at "thier" (U.S.P.S.A. matches) events! He is also one of the august "trained" R.O.s for national finals. Great show!!!The dad, who was from England by the way, wanted to know if all the action sport were that way and I told him no. He then proceded to tell me when they went to watch a pistol only match NO ONE would give him or his kids the time of day! This ties back into this rant in this way. The people calling for a unified set of rules for 3 gun seem to be the people that want to drive this venue twards the U.S.P.S.A. model. We won't have to worry about growing this sport we will have to worry about killing it from with in!!                 KURT

P.S. The great R.O. latter in the day, royaly screwed the pooch on a rifle stage, and rather than take it like a man started ranting and raving about missing the walk through and then told the M.D. to F##k off and then told all of us with in hearing to f@@k off then left in a huff with tires spinning. I KNOW ALL PISTOL SHOOTERS ARE NOT LIKE THIS!!! But the times I have run into this it has been someone from the pistol only sports. Once bit twice shy.

[jkmccoy]

Kurt,

On behalf of all "pistol shooters" out there I apologize for the behavior of that jerk and I assure you that such rudeness is not typical of all pistol clubs or matches. At our club spectators are welcomed, newbies are given brief safety instructions (we keep boxes of safety glasses and earplugs in the stat shack for people who don't have their own). Anyone who shows even the slightest interest is given a brief discussion of the sport and is encouraged to come shoot with us.

I've been shooting various sports (indoor smallbore rifle, highpower silhouette, smallbore silhouette, USPSA pistol) for 25+ years and in general I've found competitive shooters to be a pretty nice bunch of people. The people I shoot USPSA pistol with at our club and from other clubs in the area are easily the most friendly, fun bunch of shooters I've ever encountered. Come down and shoot with us sometime. I think you'll enjoy it.

Back to the question...(and assuming that we can solve the attitude problem) what rules, or sets of rules, would be best for the sport. I'm not arguing for a unified set of rules. I'm not even certain that would be a good idea. Since we are a USPSA affiliated club we would like to shoot 3-gun under USPSA rules.

What rule changes would you suggest (especially equipment rules) to the USPSA rules to help attract more shooters? Would adding something like a "tactical" division draw more shooters to USPSA matches?

Cheers,

[kurtm]

Mr McCoy:

I know all pistol shooters are not like this!!!! I wish the clubs around here were as you describe yours. If that were the case I would shoot U.S.P.S.A. They are anything but friendly here in the front range of Colorado, so I vote with my match money as pointed out befor.

Yes a single optic calss would enhance U.S.P.S.A. in my opinion. There are many people that can't shoot iron sights when it comes to rifle, and are intimidated by the OPEN monicer. As for gear it should be more along the lines of what can be bought in a local gun store as this is the gear that new shooters have!!! I.E. holsters more used to every day carry rather than the skeleton type used in competition, No shotgun speed loaders, nylon and leather mag poiuches for example. Well all this is kind of delineated by other 3 gun entities but no one wants to accept that and hence the length of this forum.

As for apologizing for this particular shooter DON'T!!! We kind of expect it from our Pistol only bretheren here!!                                 KURT

[KyleL]

Kurt

Get the rope and lets head to the Hangin tree... LOL

I love to shoot but find it difficult to have a good time when Range Lawyers are present.

I recently moved to the Pacific Northwest, at the first local match I went to the Range Lawyer told me I couldn't say " The shooter is ready, Stand by" I said oh ok I am new to this stuff. He told me if a shooter wanted to he could get a reshoot if he screwed up because of the preceding RO commands. COME ON.. How do you explain to a new shooter, ok if you screw up just tell them it was someone elses fault and you get  a reshoot.

Next Pacific Northwest match. Shooter shoots steel with 9mm, it doesn't go down even though he is hitting in the center of the so called sweet spot. His buddy starts yelling "get a reshoot, get a reshoot" the RO who happened to be a friend of mine was already controlling the situation. I was the score keeper, and the two shooters who were ranting and raving hadn't help a lick on the reset and scoring of the stage... And yes they were both open shooters... I hate to say it, but the poor lads were beaten that day by a plowboy from South Dakota shooting a Glock in 9mm.

When I run our match I look for competend RO's who understand the intent as well as the safety concerns for their particular stage. And they will stand up to anyone at the match and tell them NO..... They are not scared in the least bit by Bennie, Mikey V, or Jimmy Clark,  however they are pretty scared of Kelly Neal, just because the law is looking for him....   At USPSA matches RO's are normally scared of the Super Squad or just like to let them get over...

Keep the rules in USPSA however you want but don't stiffle the Match Directors that want to run a successful shooting competition under their own rules.

Lastely, don't be offended by this if it doesn't apply to you....  If this really pisses you off, well you might be that guy.....

God Bless America!!!!!!

KyleL

[kellyn]

Ok, we've gone too far astray.  I figure Kyle is the perfect person on which to lock this thread.  Kyle, the law is not looking for me, I'm looking for it.

I think my original comments about tactical class stand.  It's the use of military/LE/real-world equipment in the match context.  Of course as we've seen there is much debate over what kind of equipment it is.

[kellyn]

A recent disagreement/conversation/discussion between Jake Kempton and I has caused me to unlock this genie's bottle.

[Patrick Sweeney]

If Kelly will allow, I'll try to re-state my position.  As a Club President and long-time competitor, I don't want anyone to turn down an opportunity to shoot in our matches because of the "I don't have the right equipment" syndrome.

I'm not trying to create a unified pan-3gun ruling authority.

I'm trying to figure out how to lure guys who (for whatever reason) use optics on their rifles, who have no desire to put optics on handguns and shotguns.

Some call themselves tactical.  Some just say their eyesight is old.  Others might not want to put in the time learning to use rifle irons.  Whatever.

How do I as the Pres and MD get you to consider a USPSA 3-Gun match?

[Mistral404]

Again Mr. Sweeney's concise and succinct statement is the sum of our concerns.  

I am in the age group that needs glasses/contacts.  A scope on a rifle is perfect for me.  Iron sights would not work well beyond 50yrds for me.  I do not shoot open hand gun {Single Stack) or shotgun (Benelli).  But in a USPSA match, that is where I would be placed.  Now that would neither be fun nor competitive for me.   And I do not want to join the equipment wars!

Luckily, our local matches do not really differentiate between classes.  But these are local matches which encourage participation.  

More folks would shoot USPSA matches if there were a tactical class but as one RM recently said, "there is no way the President of USPSA is going to allow it."  USPSA does a lot of right things, emphasis on safety, etc.  A few rules would have to change to facilitate a great 3Gun environment.  

I would suggest looking at Tuesday Night Steel at Rio Salado as a model.  Gary's attitude is "run with what you brung".  There is a lot of encouragement and positive feedback to new shooters at his matches.  It is no wonder he gets 120-140 shooters every Tuesday night.  Not once a year, almost every Tuesday night!!  And it is not because Phoenix has a couple of million people-it is the attuitude at that range.  It encourages people to shoot what they can afford.

ATTITUDE IS EVERYTHING!

99%  of the people at my local club are very supportive of new shooters.  I haven't meet the 1% yet but I am assuming there is someone in the club(s) with a grumpy attitude.  

[PacMan]

May be I'm missing something, but isn't it (the attitude) what we've been saying in the last few pages of this topic?  If USPSA doesn't allow it or doesn't want to change, oh well. Your match doesn't have to be USPSA santioned.  Stage it with the right attitude and they will come.

I would dare to say that we're making a lot out of nothing.

(Edited by PacMan at 12:32 pm on Jan. 7, 2003)

[George]

Has anyone actually asked Mike Voight what his thoughts are on USPSA allowing a single optic on rifle for Limited class shooters, and the sub-division it would require?

I see USPSA being painted as the inflexible object here, but I have yet to see anything from the "prez" on this subject.

Anyone have any hard intel here?

Regards,

(Edited by George at 6:33 pm on Jan. 7, 2003)

[kurtm]

Patrick:

First off I would like to say that I painted the clubs in the Rocky Mountain front range with to braod a brush when it comes to U.S.P.S.A. I have let the actions and attitudes of about 10 people color my out look on the whole. That is wrong and I appologize to the clubs and section director Tom Freeman!!

Now onto the new and improved discussion on tactical. You may be able to entice new shooters to a U.S.P.S.A. sanctioned match with the addition of an optic/limited/tactical class I don't know. One thing I have heard from quite a few people now ( new shooters to 3-gun and USPSA) is that there is a lack of help/coaching for the new shooter while shooting. One couple I talked to at Mesa last year were really whipped up on shooting the Nationals, and 3 gun in general(both new shooters). They shot the nationals and became very disenchanted. The husband was D.Q.ed in the rifle section and had no idea why. when explained he felt that there were intentional 180 traps and no one ever explained foot faults. There were no warnings, just "yer outa there"! They also felt that some of the R.O.s took a great deal of pleasure in giving out penalties and even smirked and gloated when having them sign thier score sheets. Now I know this is a "National level match" and brand new shooters shouldn't really shoot it without a fim understanding of the rules; but when you are shooting your second 3 gun match of your life it is kind of hard to deal with the let down. I wasn't there so this is just relating what they said. The husband finaly came to a 3gun match in November at Rocky Mountain 3 gun. He had a blast! We know he is a new shooter and so when he starts making mistakes we coach him right in the middle of a stage, watch your feet, shoot from this port, close to the 180, don't skip this target, etc. All the things that would get glares, stares and penalties in a USPSA match. We do this with ALL our new shooters. We feel that the shooter has enough on his mind, triing to be safe, than to remember a foot fault. That is what I mean when I say attitude. Make it fun, don't punish unnesseccarily with penalties, and help them trough the courses. Well it workes for us.

In studying the growth and turn over in new shooters, I have found several things. One:  the shooter that comes and tries it once and never comes back, usually for 2 reasons, they have a high opinion of their skill and find it is not what they thought; the atmosphere of the match itsself. Two: The occational shooter, to busy to put alot of time in on 3 gun, the weather. Three: the shooter that shoots alot of matches and then vanishes. 1. guns now are in the corner with the golf clubs and skies as they are off to some thing new, or tired of the attitude/ atmosphere of the club he shoots at. I have talked to alot of shooters as to why they don't come back, and never has it been because they didn't have the right kind of gear. If a person is interested enough to shoot a match and come to the next one he will find a way to run what he has or change it. Never have I heard a new shooter say I won't shoot because I don't have X or Y type of gear. I have heard them say they won't shoot because the gloatingly assigned penalties, the lack of help befor the stage and durring and the attitude of the people that are shooting in that club.

WOW what a drift!!! SORRY!!! all I know is that most of the guys that shoot "tactical", we call it modified here and it is at least 60% of our club, have been 3 gunning for a long time and not many new shooters shoot in this catagory. A few do, but in general its the old guys. The question may be how to entice these guys into shooting a USPSA sanctioned match.                           KURT

[3GunF1Guy]

As I am reading the new Front Sight Jan/feb 2003 (Go to page 5) Dave says:

" Recogized matches are events that operate under USPSA safty rules, but don't necessarily abide by the equipment rules."

I am starting a club here in Utah to shoot 3-gun matches. To try and encourage some of the USPSA shooters to try out 3-gun I am going to try a match using USPSA safety rules and the MGA rules for everything else which will give me the ability to shoot a tactical optics class as a USPSA match. So we will have "Open", "Limited", and "Tactical Class-Scoped Rifle".

Tell what you think about this?

[VNGunfighter]

"The question is how to entice these guys into shooting a USPSA sanctioned match"

Kurt my friend, I have not had a problem at the USPSA 3-Gun Nationals. I like to play the games as you do. I have gone for many years and just put up with the rules and have fun and just shoot. As you know I shot in Open class last year and 1/2 of my gear was limited. I did this because I shoot everyone elses matches with a scope or some sort of a dot sight-(Tactical/Modified)-whatever.........

And now to your quote....... Are you wanting to see more of the RM3G contingent shooting more matches? Because that would be great and I would have someone to split fuel with.

You know as well as I do, that there is a VERY limited number of shooters that would travel to these places. I think alot of them are not members of the USPSA but come to the matches and just like to have fun.

And that what's its all about.........I think???

[kellyn]

Kurt I am familiar with the DQ that you're mentioning.  While I agree with you about the attitude of some the the RO's at the 3 Gun nationals, I don't disagree with that DQ.  I've met the shooter and he seems like a real nice guy but he was in over his head.  It was after all THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP which implies that one might be familiar with the rules and gain some experience before arriving.  Perhaps one ought not to choose the nationals as one's second foray into 3 gun.  I know he had a bad experience but he was at fault.  You really can't have "coaching" at a national level individual match (except maybe you can coach me at your match!)  Local matches sure!  I do it all the time.  But not the Nationals.  I don't care if you're Jerry Miculek or in last place, coaching should not be allowed.

I'm not sure how Voigt feels about a tactical 3 gun class.  He does have a lot of experience in the area of Tactical 3 gun matches.  He always chose to shoot tactical scope everytime that I was at SOF so maybe he's sympathetic.  

While I hate the idea of yet another class, so many many shooters really like the tactical scope class.  Perhaps it is time to add it to USPSA's stable.  Or maybe lose Limited all together and and create a Tactical class along the lines of Kyle's match.   I will keep track of how many shooters line up for the three classes at the MM3g.

 

[kurtm]

Scott:

What you describe is very similer to the way R.M.3 G. is run USPSA safety rules ..for the most part, and then limited, modified, and open are set up the way we see fit. It works for us, although we haven't tried to run under USPSA sanctioning.

Jimmie:

Since I'm not a member of USPSA It would be hard for me to split the cost of fuel with you as I couldn't or wouldn't be allowed to shoot. Yea I could become a member but I'm still a bit upset about that Mile Hi Show Down deal, and the State Championships. I even took it up with Voight at S.O.F. last year(2001) and he just kind of shrugged it off as just one of those things that happens ...sorry. With that kind of attitude from the top down don't look for me to sign up soon. But I will split fuel anywhere else, maybe to the European Shotgun Championships?

Kelly:

I didn't mean to imply that it was any bodys fault but his and her own! Thats why I typed "brand new shooters shouldn't shoot it with out a firm understanding of the rules." I only used this as an example, albiet a poor one, of how atmosphere can ruin an experiance for the new shooter........I KNOW....... NATIONALS!!! As for coaching, maybe you can recall the Raton match. We let no one run past a target, or shoot out of position. Jerry got some help on one he was running by, as well as many otheres including Mom Neil's boy, and as you were walking up to my brother's stage??? How about at the team shoot??? Ah well you get the idea!! Granted they were suprize stages and some of the targets were WELL hidden, and in general you were using more than one gun per stage(try that in USPSA). World Champion 3 Gun has always coached and it's the world championships not just some silly Nationals. ( here comes the "if the Mikes jumped off the cliff "thing!) Most of the above is ment in humor!! But The under lieing thing is the "atmospher and attitude" of a match, even a big one, doesn't have to be R.O. advisarial, and would in general make for more pleasnt matches. I leave you with this thought... and if you don't know the story see me in March for all the gory details... An N.I.R.O. ,or whatever you call them, slapping the timmer to end my brothers time on the slide stage last year at M.M.3G. after watching him unload and safe his shotgun....it,s all in the attitude!!!!!!!                             KURT

[George]

The thing that makes the USPSA type events stand alone is the fact that they are run under a consistent set of rules, and there is no coaching allowed. I always enjoy the shooting, first, and foremost. But there is a big difference between dealing with the cof on your own, and getting helped through a stage like you were still in kindergarden. There is a certain kind of purity to be found in flying solo once the buzzer goes off (I can "Bozo" a stage with the best of them when I really put my mind to it).

When stage complexity requires course instructions to be chanted to you as you shoot, then things are not exactly at “Championship” level (match titles notwithstanding). This can be loads of fun, but does not truly define championship status.

I do believe that a unique aspect of our sport is that a newcomer can stand in the same shooting box that the reigning champ just shot in half an hour ago. Try that in auto racing, or olympic competition. Keeping this working at the championship level may be a good idea, and we ought to take a look at the new shooter as someone who gets singled out, and sheparded through as we do at my home club. We take care of newbies because we remember when we were new, and we owe (the concept of "pay it forward" should always be at work here).

The USPSA 3 Gun Nationals have been been no great shakes as far as the courses of fire, and RO friendliness in the past few years (the area one 3 gun was a better USPSA match than the nats were last year). But, it is the “National Championship”. If it can get it worked out properly with IPSC, then maybe we can actually have a true “World Championship” for 3 Gun someday. I know it seems like we have one already, but it really is only a specialty match similar to US IROC in auto racing, and not resembling true world championship Grand Prix. That is where we ultimately need to go if we truly believe we are legit as a sport.

Regards,

(Edited by George at 1:49 am on Jan. 8, 2003)

[kellyn]

Kurt, I know SOF/WC3gun has allowed "coaching" although usually to the detriment of the better shooters as the RO tries to make the shooter shoot the stage as the RO would do it (ask Mr. Voigt!).  Yes, you told me to shoot a popper on that one stage and I shot it but you shouldn't have!

Besides how "tactical" is it to have someone telling you how to shoot a stage or that you missed a target?  If it was the real world, the shooter would have gone by the target and gotten KIA'd.  I thought "tactical" meant trying to simulate the real deal.

I do agree that it's all in the attitude!