Tactical Rant, sorta

[George]

Under Patrick's suggested guidlines, I would be able to compete in two classes with the gear I already have (Open & Mixed Tactical). I would only have to get a replacement barrel for my 11-87 to be completely geared up for Limited. And all of the pouches and holsters I already own would suffice for every class.

Yes Sir Ree, It works for me.

Regards,

Whoopee, I'm no longer a gatherer!

(Edited by George at 2:15 pm on Nov. 19, 2002)

[kurtm]

Pat:

The old S.O.F. and  the now W.C.3G. amost always filed to the limit of 250 shooters,some times a few less sometimes a few more, all except 2001 which was 2 weeks after 9-11. I don't think anyone could have filled a match then. So, to your question, could it have brought more shooters? NO it was maxed out! Could it have brought less shooters? NO it was maxed out!! And don't forget this was durring a time when the U.S.P.S.A. Nationals were bringing a whopping 75 shooters.     KURT

[3GunF1Guy]

I Really like Patrick's rules. They are a mix of the two prevailing rule sets out there. (USPSA and IMA)

As I have read this thread the MM3G and the Rockyy mountain 3-gun" thread I have noticed that most of what people want is a set of rules that seams reasonable. Here are my examples:

In IMA rules if you have a shotgun over 22" in length guess what- Your in Open. Same thing with a comp on a standard AR-15. As I look around at what is being sold and what is available to most shooters who want to start doing 3-gun competitions this is a BIG, BIG deterrent. Why should I bring my "Stock" AR-15 and/or Bird gun with a extended magazine on it and be in open class. How Stupid Is that? Its like these two IMA rules were created to keep all but the really serious 3- gun shooters who have a lot of money from competing.

In USPSA rules one of the big hurdles is the lack of a class that has a scope on a rifle, without being in open with the race guns. (My opinion on why this class is so popular is because most new shooters into 3-gun have come from IDPA and USPSA limited and production classes. They have the shotgun, they have the pistol, but to ask someone who is mostly a pistol shooter for competition and probably a big game hunter, to shoot a rifle without a scope has them scratching their heads and asking ... Why.) The second thing in USPSA is the scoring and the Major/Minor thing. We have no software to score a USPSA 3-gun match. You will notice that at the Rocky mountain 3-gun they have added a "He-Man" class which is really limited/major everything.

It looks like The IMA rules are the closest to what everyone wants with a few minor changes.

Scott Peterson

[Blane West]

  In the 3-gun matches we put on in Colorado we have three classes.

Open, Modified and Limited.

Open - anything you want to bolt on your gun.

Modified- Limited rules EXCEPT for a rifle scope.

Limited-USPSA limited 3-gun rules.

When we decided to put the Rocky Mountain 3-gun Match together we sat down and looked at ALL of the rules of ALL of the  matches that we had shot. After many hours of discussion we came to the conclusion that if we were going to run a "Tactical" match we would use the same rules Kyle Lamb uses. I'm convinced for a "Tactical' match there is nothing even close.

But since we were also going to allow Open class ,the IMA rules were the closest to what we wanted, WITH CHANGES.

The changes are (in Limited-scope class), ANY single optic of any size, shape or power the shooter wants to bring. We thought that this would bring in more shooters who didn't want to spend $1200 for an "approved" scope. Everybody has a 3-9x scope or a red dot laying around that they could mount on their rifle for the match. We thought that would eliminate most of the high dollar equipment hurdle we hear about.

The biggest change was the compensator rule that now ALLOWS any compensator in Limited or Modified (Limited-Scope) class. It can't be bigger then  1" diameter and 3" long. That will cover pretty much every compensator made. This will allow ANY shooter who buys a rifle equipped with a compensator to shoot Limited or Modified, instead of putting them in Open class.

We also hear from shooters who tell us they never get to shoot their .308 battle rifles and their .45's because they can't compete against the guys with high capacity guns and rifles that don't recoil. So we started the HE-MAN class.

I'm looking forward to seeing all the big bores shoot it out.

Blane

Match Director-Rocky Mountain 3-gun

(Edited by Blane West at 7:12 pm on Nov. 20, 2002)

[PacMan]

Now that's more like it! I've been lurking in the background watching this thread developed into a friendly (and somewhat heated) discussion.  After the dust settled, the scoped rifle was at the crux of all agreements/disagreements, IMO.  The RM3G Match rule seems simple enough - any scope (for the Modified Class) as long as you keep it at 4x or less.   (Darn...I could of kept my el-cheapo Bushnell on the mouse gun).

[Patrick Sweeney]

It sounds like we're close to agreeing, here.  The few objections I hear can be handled with speciality classes, as in the He-Man class.

With a general set of rules/equipment definitions, we can avoid fragmentation and the Bianchi Stasis of Doom.

And for those who want a match closer to reality, give extra recognition and status to those who shoot it with real gear.  Announce the results of the "Afghan Class" (web gear, flapped mag pouches, issue optics, etc) before announcing the overall winner.  Give him a bigger trophy.  But recognize shooting skill in order.

Is it time for practice, followed by a beer, or is there wrangling left to do?

[Mistral404]

It is Miller Time

[3GunF1Guy]

Yes there is some wrangling left to do.

At the MM3 gun, the Rocky mountain and others the limited shotgun barrel length is 22". MAXIMUM!

Could someone please explain WHY? or think about changing the rule to allow a longer barrel. Why would there be a barrel lenght in the limited/tactical class. For example I am going to shoot the MM 3-gun, the MGM Ironman and the Rocky Mountain match with a Para-ord 1911, a AR-15 with iron sights and a Browning shotgun. Guess what, I have to shoot in open becouse I have a stock Browning shotgun with a 24" barrel made for shooting ducks. This makes me not as excited to come shoot.

If I am being a whinner please let me know... I can take it.

[Patrick Sweeney]

Scott,

I don't think you're being a whiner.  The rule is probably an attempt to keep some IPSC shooter from showing up with a 30" barrel and screw in chokes tubes, smoking the stages, and offending the idea of tactical.

And the objection would be, "A 30" barrel would not be practical in the jungle."  And a 22' barrel isn't either, compared to, say, an 18" or 14" barrel.

It is an example of failure to follow through on a logical premise.  Why 22"?  Why not 24'?  If something else is more practical, then it should be the standard, right down to the legal limit.  That's why I posited nine shots as the limit, not length.  Nine is the capacity of a stock Benelli, or a Remington with a 20" barrel and a muzzle-flush mag tube.  If you want to use a bigger gun without more capacity, then run the risk of having to negotiate narrow hallways and windows with it.

[kurtm]

PAT & SCOTT:

Pat has not quite got it as far as the rule of bbl. length goes. The rule states 22" barrel with MAG EXTENTION NOT TO EXCEED 1" PAST THE BARREL. The rule is desighned to keep a guy w/ the 30" bbl. and 31' mag extention from shooting in a limited division I.E. Jimmy Clarks 18 rnd 1100. As for really "SMOKIN" the targets as Pat can tell you any good choke will let that happen even with a 14" bbl. I have even found a slight increase in velocity in the 18-21" range over the really long bbls. This rule lets a smart guy run 10-11 rounds in a fairly short handy gun WITH OUT placing a set # of shells into the rules. In reguards to Scotts A5 as long as the mag tube is not REDICULES... talk to Blane West for a dispensation for the Rocky Mountain match, He might allow it in limited ( for my part I would say yes). As for jungle use a 22" bbl is not that much of a hinderance as long as the space between the barrel and mag tube is closed off so brush doesn't get in and snag the gun. We use duct tape to good advantage here, and this has to be done for any shotgun no matter the length if it has a mag extention.                                KURT

[Patrick Sweeney]

OK, so a 22" barrel is fine.  and what to do when I show up with some of my supply of 2" shells?  Instead of ten rounds, I can stuff in twelve, maybe more depending on the action.  Tactical?  Gamey?

Again, what is the purpose of the exercise?  What is the intention of the rule?  If the idea is to keep someone form showing up with gear that makes the match uncompetitive, then limiting length doesn't do it.  Limiting capacity does.

And, why 22"?  Why allow 1" extra for the tube?  Why not 18" and not extra for the tube?  Why not 24"?

I'm not against Tactical, I just want a clear definition of it.  

[kurtm]

Pat:

Both S.M.M.3G and W.C.3G. very specificaly forbid 2" shells, The length rule was put in place so a guy could be competitive with say an 1100 as compaired to the Benneli wich holds 9 ( more on this latter). Length rules have been with practical  shooting for a long time, ever hear of the I.P.S.C. box? why the dimensions of the box they chose?? why not a 1/4" wider or 1" longer??? Why Why Why..

It is interesting that every body seems to pick 9 rounds as the limit for  limited, as this is the STOCK capacity of a Benneli. To get a 870 or 1187 to hold this amount it is necessary to have a longer mag tube, and just so it doesn't look to stange a longer barrel. HENCE the length rules that were put in place. Why not 8 round limit and let the guys with 1100s and 870 run the stock mag extentions and 18" barrels??? If you load the carrier of your Bennelli your D.Q.ed. SEE I CAN WHY ALL DAY TOO.                                       KURT

[Patrick Sweeney]

Why more rules than needed?  If 2" shells are not allowed, but you are limiting length to keep things in line with the Benelli, why not just say:

"Capacity: No more than nine rounds of any size.  Shotgun o.a.l. to be determined by the competitor."

And let stage design penalize the guys who insist on 30" barrels while loading nine rounds?

As for the IPSC box, it is the size it is because a 1911A1 Government fits it with little room to spare, and that seemed like a suitable standard at the time.

One last time, I'm not against Tactical, I'm just trying to nail down a definition so I can tell the shooters at my club what it is.  And telling them to download the rules from other matches doesn't help.

[kurtm]

Pat:

The length IS NOT IN LINE WITH BENELLI. It is in line with the length of an 870/1100/1187, Brownning A-5, Winchester Super-X2, Brownning Gold Lable, Winchester 1300s, and last but not least Mosberg 500/590 that would also hold 9 rounds, EQUIVALENT to a Benelli.  most Benellies will hold 1 extra shell on the carrier, not in the tube, allowing the Benelli to be about 2" shorter over all than the above mentioned shotguns. SINCE THE BENELLI BARREL IS ABOUT 20" it was decided to allow all the above mentioned shotguns to be about 2" longer just to be some what fair. WOW all of a sudden you now have the 22" rule. I hope the light bulb just came on!!!

As for more rules, why not allow any rifle ammo? We have defined the rifle ...BUT some people seem to want to limit what kind of ammo is used in it... imagin no SS109/M855 ammo. WHO EVER HEARED OF LIMITING AMMO???? Why not just leave it up to the competitor.

I am all for limiting rounds in the Shotgun but it should be 8. This is what  a stock 870 w/ 18" barrel will hold as well as the 1187 with the "stock" Choat tube. WHY SHOULD WE DRIVE THE BENELLI CAPACITY. By placing the 9 round limit you penalize all the people who currently have the short slug barrels on 870/1100s, Mosbergs, and many of the Winchesters  by 1 round, and don't try to say but the X2 and Goldlables hold 9, not every body can afford $900 for a shotgun just to play a game.                                     KURT

[Mistral404]

I think the new Benellis do not have the capacity of the older models.  I believe the new ones will not carry one in the receiver as did the older models.  The bottom rails on the bolt have notches which prevent the extra rounds.  This is from my personal experience, I have not done a any tinkering with it to force the issue but I do believe it was the factory's intent to no longer allow the extra round in the receiver.

The factory extended tubes generally only have a capacity of seven.  However, DMW has tube extensions to up the capacity.  But with a 21 inch barrel the tube extends about 1.25 inches beyond the end of the barrel.  With the Dave's tube and a spring cut down it is possible to nine in the tube, but there are feeding problems.

So it seems the solution might be to just have a max number of shells limit.

[kurtm]

Mistral404:

Welcome to the world of " mine holds 9 but yours doesn't!!!!  Mine holds 11 as per the 22" rule but it seems others don't. Yea newer Benellies hold only 8 ( where have I see this before?) unless you "trick the carrier" or as Benelli sayes, the bolt. Yea as Patrick wants the OLD Benellies have the edge at a capacity of 9, but then I think he owns one.                  KURT

[Steve Moneypenny]

The problem, and reasoning for the extra notch in the bolt is because of the damn law that a semi auto shotgun with a pistol grip can't hold more than X number of rounds.

Strait stock (so this will be legal) a mig welder and a file /dremil tool and the new ones hold just as many.

I am a 3 gun shooter, and if it were like this where I shoot, I wouldn't even go to the range that day. Is there really such a "his holds 1 more round" problem, 22" is about all you can wield in a CQB environment, Remington's come with a lot of 20 and 21" Barrels, this is stock, so giving a little extra room never hurts.

Kurtm, I'm not sure wether your trying to make a point, or just make possible arguments. But your tone seems a bit vindictive. As I see it no mater what is said you will have a problem with it.

[kurtm]

S$:

Not vindictive exasperated!!! I don't have a problem with a round limit,but it should be 8 that way all the new "legal" guns are good to go. 9 rounds just seem to drive a "spec" shotgun, I.E. Benelli. To aleveate the added expense of gunsmithing, or specialty mag extentions 8 would be better.

The exasperation comes from the fact that people just can't seem to get the reason for the 22" rule ( although you seem to have it ) My personal preference is just the length rule but I guess I am alone on that and thats okay. I was making a point at Pats expense and probable shouldn't have but it was just sooo easy.

You don't have to weld the carrier(bolt) on the new guns just cut the back of the slot off at 45 degree angle, then they run just fine. From your  post I think you know which notch to cut.                   KURT

[Steve Moneypenny]

Kurt.. hadn't thought of it that way..... my first thought was "make it like the one that works".

As for rounds, there will always be something newer than the rules. 2" shells, think i even saw 1 3/4 " shells somewhere.

I have shot an "idpa" style "tactical" 3 gun, you could only load 5 because they wanted to avoid the equipment race... that really stunk, I ditched my shot gun after empty, took the 1 procedural and engaged all steel with my pistol.

[Blane West]

After reading all the posts and looking at the way Kyle runs his match (I know everything goes back to Kyle's match) I think maybe a round limit would be a better thing, or at least worth talking about on the post for the next couple of weeks. Ha,Ha

Blane

[PacMan]

8 rds versus 9 rds limit for shotgun really does not handicap a limited class person that much (provide that he/she doesn't miss ).  Kurt has a point, all of the newer shotguns (except Benelli + some Dremel time) are maxed out at 8, let's just go for the 8 round rule and call it done.  I have a 21" BPS with a 7 rds. tube, and after handling the shorter M1S90, the BPS is like a broomstick with the witch at the end.

(Edited by PacMan at 6:52 am on Nov. 24, 2002)

[SGDM]

Tactically speaking, you can start the stage with an empty shotgun and make 'em load 'em up!

[kurtm]

SGDM:

If a person was starting with a 1300 Defender, He would be starting a Winchester Winchester!!! Or even a new X-2!!!! I glow with glee at the thought.   KURT

[Patrick Sweeney]

I hadn't selected 9 rounds because I've got a Benelli, just because it seemed like the number the group was focused on.  8 works for me.  5 works for me, if we can come up with a rational reason for it.  (I've love to be able to shoot matches with a 14" Border Patrol model 870.)

If we simply say "8 rounds loaded at any time" and let the shooter work out length issues for themselves, we're clear.  If someone shows up with a shotgun that can hold more than eight, it is their reponsibility to make sure they don't load more than 8 or suffer procedurals.  Or do the smart thing and put a plug in it.

No need of extra rules on shell length, o.a.l. or the rest.

No, I don't own a Benelli.  I won a bunch of them off the prize tables at Second Chance when they were new, hated them and traded them off.  (They kicked too hard, wouldn't cycle Trap loads, and I could shoot my Browning A-5's faster.)

Starting with an empty gun just makes it longer to run a stage.  Doing it every now and then can be fun and informative, but as a regular thing it just becomes a hassle.

[IPSC CHIK1]

once again we must go back to Coopers' question of "what are we trying to accomplish?".  the use of the term "tactical" seems to be used to attract more shooters who do not like to be called "limited".

but, what IS "tactical"?

to  me tactical is the BEST tool to SAVE MY PRECIOUS SELF!

if i am fool enough to go into a gunfight with only a pistol then i want the most powerful, accurate, controllable, highest magazine capacity pistol i can find. and that happens to be my OPEN CLASS PARA ORDNANCE 9X23 RACE GUN. it is hard to argue that 27 rds of 357 magnum power in a much more controllable pistol is NOT a wise choice. stuffed with winchester 125gr silvertips it would be an awesome defensive tool. for a pistol.

so, for those of you pondering "tactical", what ARE you trying to accomplish?

are you trying to attract more shooters?

are you trying to be a training facility?

are you trying to be GI Joe?

define that and you will be most of the way home to defining "tactical" for YOUR purposes.

but remember, they may NOT be "tactical" for MY purposes.

Sharon Anne L 2387