Classification System Clarification Sought

[RickT]

is there a ruling regarding the Outer Limits penalty for an individual that must shoot from the center box only?  I know this has been discussed, but I don't recall reading about a disposition.  My wife is a B/C SSr Single Stack shooter and changing boxes in Outer Limits really isn't safe due to permanent hip damage although she does do the change in our club matches albeit slowly.  A "B" classification is in reach, not a bad goal for a new shooter, but she is stuck currently with a pretty significant disadvantage resulting from that one stage.

As a complete aside I'd welcome someone posting a link to the results from this year's WSSC.  I can't find on practiscore and using the SCSA website I just get circulated around a few differnent URLs.

[ZackJones]

This is covered in the current rules.

3.4.1 Special penalty: A competitor unable to fully execute any part of a course of fire due to incapacity or injury may, prior to making his attempt at the course of fire, request that the Range Master apply a penalty in lieu of the stated course requirement. The Range Master may waive or modify procedural penalties in respect of a competitor who has a significant physical disability prior to the competitor making his attempt at the course of fire. (as an example, a wheelchair bound competitor might shoot all of Outer Limits from the center box without penalty.)

I've yet to see an RM enforce a 3-second procedural penalty per string. What I have done in every case where I have been asked is to permit the competitor to shoot from the center box without penalty. I know at FL State this year the RM elected to assess a 1.5 second penalty per string.

WSSC Results - SCSA Web - http://steelchallenge.com/steel-challenge-display-match-results.php?action=event_index&indx=2347

WSSC Results - PractiScore - https://practiscore.com/results/html/08b9c647-bd27-4dc8-bfde-ec110915ffa8
 

 

[RickT]

Zack,

Thanks for the quick response.  I thought I had seen 1.5 sec. mentioned elsewhere.  Anything in the range of 1.5 to 2.0 seconds would seem to be in the right place.  

I was searching Practiscore for "WSSC" and looking at the entire DB I must have scrolled right by.

[ZackJones]

33 minutes ago, RickT said:

Thanks for the quick response.  I thought I had seen 1.5 sec. mentioned elsewhere.  Anything in the range of 1.5 to 2.0 seconds would seem to be in the right place.  

I was searching Practiscore for "WSSC" and looking at the entire DB I must have scrolled right by.

Happy to help. I think 1.5 was mentioned here on Enos. 

[Pasley]

Can you take the 1.5 second penalty if your only handicap is being old and fat?

I have said here before that I would like the movement on Outer Limits to be eliminated entirely.  

If that is unacceptable I would like to see all competitors have the option to take a penalty and shoot from the center box.

 I would like to eliminate the movement and shoot five strings, like all the other stages.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Pasley

[photoracer]

1.5 seconds would be an incorrect penalty per string for a good shooter in my opinion. I have bad knees that slow me down, yet thanks to Max I can shoot 4s runs with RFPO or RFRO. If I can shoot raw times in Showdown, Roundabout, and S&H under 2s flat I could easily do that if standing in the middle box of OL. 1.8+1.5=3.3 which is too fast. OL would need a par time dropped to the 8s range with no movement.

Sent from my XT1064 using Tapatalk

[ZackJones]

20 hours ago, Pasley said:

Can you take the 1.5 second penalty if your only handicap is being old and fat?

I have said here before that I would like the movement on Outer Limits to be eliminated entirely.  

If that is unacceptable I would like to see all competitors have the option to take a penalty and shoot from the center box.

 I would like to eliminate the movement and shoot five strings, like all the other stages.

If we were to go with an option like this then it would work as follows:

Shoot and move = raw time.

Center box only = raw time + 3 seconds 'procedural' per string.

We'd keep it at 4 strings.

This would give every competitor the choice to either shoot and move or stand and shoot based on their preference. 

PractiScore and EzSteel already support this so no software changes would be required.

 

[ZackJones]

18 hours ago, photoracer said:

1.5 seconds would be an incorrect penalty per string for a good shooter in my opinion. I have bad knees that slow me down, yet thanks to Max I can shoot 4s runs with RFPO or RFRO. If I can shoot raw times in Showdown, Roundabout, and S&H under 2s flat I could easily do that if standing in the middle box of OL. 1.8+1.5=3.3 which is too fast. OL would need a par time dropped to the 8s range with no movement.

The 1.5 second penalty was the RM's call. IMO this one rule where we give too much flexibility, IMO. The RM has too many options (1) No penalty (2) 3 second procedural or (3) some arbitrary penalty. I would be happy with stand and shoot = +3 in all cases. I'll bounce the idea of a few people and see what kind of feedback I get.

[Pasley]

1.5 seconds seems about right to me.

Peak time Speed Option 13.5/4=3.38

Peak time Outer Limits    14.5/3= 4.83

4.83-3.38=1.45

[scottlep]

No offense to Photoracer, but looking through the results from most major 2016 matches there are very few people running OL at 4 seconds per string with rimfire. 1.5 second penalty is not even close to enough of a penalty for people who chose not to move. Should stay at 3 seconds procedural if you choose not to move whether is is due to age, handicap. My current classifier time for OL in RFPO is 14.08, or 4.69 per string average. I would break this down as a .8 low ready draw, which only leaves 3.89 for shooting and moving. On a good day I might be able to make the actual movement from box to box in 1.5 seconds, but that would not account for actually getting back on target and shooting my first plate from the second box. If the penalty was only 1.5 seconds per sting I would choose to never even move 

[jkrispies]

10 minutes ago, scottlep said:

No offense to Photoracer, but looking through the results from most major 2016 matches there are very few people running OL at 4 seconds per string with rimfire. 1.5 second penalty is not even close to enough of a penalty for people who chose not to move. Should stay at 3 seconds procedural if you choose not to move whether is is due to age, handicap. My current classifier time for OL in RFPO is 14.08, or 4.69 per string average. I would break this down as a .8 low ready draw, which only leaves 3.89 for shooting and moving. On a good day I might be able to make the actual movement from box to box in 1.5 seconds, but that would not account for actually getting back on target and shooting my first plate from the second box. If the penalty was only 1.5 seconds per sting I would choose to never even move 

I'd have to agree with this in principle.  While I appreciate the thought behind providing equity for the handicapped, I can't think of any other major athletic organization that allows for these sorts of exceptions.  Rather than argue over what special penalty allows for fairness vs equity, just leave it as a standard 3 second penalty that anyone can accept at essentially any stage.  That's just following the rules and taking your lumps as a competitor.  If the shooter doesn't like it, then I'm sorry but that's what happens in athletics. I'd say that if equity for the elderly, wheelchair bound, etc, was that important to SC as an organization, the movement in OL should be removed altogether so as to make it a moot point.  And, BTW, I'd fully support this. Otherwise you start down a slippery slope of what other "equalizers" must be written into the rules for future unknown handicaps.  Just my humble opinion.  

[Pasley]

Remember those tests in school where you had to choose "which one of these things is not like the other things"?  That to me is Outer Limits.  It offends my sense of symetry.

[ZackJones]

2 hours ago, Pasley said:

Remember those tests in school where you had to choose "which one of these things is not like the other things"?  That to me is Outer Limits.  It offends my sense of symetry.

Suck it up, buttercup

[Thomas H]

I personally like the idea of a standard penalty of that sort being the same procedural penalty that everything else is.  That's what's happening, after all.

 

 

[PPGMD]

IMO there should be two penalties, as the rule book currently allows. The standard penalty of 3 seconds per a run. And the RM allowed waiver penalty for legitimately handicapped shooters that should be based on classification.

1.5 seconds to a D class shooter is being generous, but 1.5 seconds to a GM class is very harsh.

 

[photoracer]

8 hours ago, scottlep said:

No offense to Photoracer, but looking through the results from most major 2016 matches there are very few people running OL at 4 seconds per string with rimfire. 1.5 second penalty is not even close to enough of a penalty for people who chose not to move. Should stay at 3 seconds procedural if you choose not to move whether is is due to age, handicap. My current classifier time for OL in RFPO is 14.08, or 4.69 per string average. I would break this down as a .8 low ready draw, which only leaves 3.89 for shooting and moving. On a good day I might be able to make the actual movement from box to box in 1.5 seconds, but that would not account for actually getting back on target and shooting my first plate from the second box. If the penalty was only 1.5 seconds per sting I would choose to never even move 

That is what I am really saying. Heck if offered the chance at +1.5s maybe the pros would game the stage and shoot from the center without movement if they found it was quicker for them also. BJ shot OL in FL in something like 9.86s. I don't remember anyone else shooting it below 10 flat before ever. Shooting OL from the center box is about the same difficulty as shooting any of the 3 fastest stages. So a 1.5s penalty means that a number of pros could likely get under 10 seconds.

[Jim O'Young]

A Steel Challenge WSSC history lesson for all of you kids & newcomers:

Back in the day (circa 1987-early 90's) there were a few (only one that I can distinctly remember by name) wheelchair shooters. On Outer Limits, they shot from the center box and received 4 procedurals (@ 5 sec. each) per run. Excessive? Yes, but correct in strict accordance with the letter of the rules. They did not complain or whine, they understood & accepted the rules, applied as written. With all due respect, their skill level & competitiveness for overall placement was not on par with today's shooters (i.e. Anthony Spinelli, Dan Jordan & Trevor Baucom)

In 1992 & 93, movement was eliminated from Outer Limits and everyone shot from the center box. When the Mikes reincarnated the Steel Challenge WSSC from the dormant years (1994-96), they also brought back the movement. In their words, "Outer Limits is NOT Outer Limits w/o the movement...)

Fast forward back to today:

John (jkrispies) brings up an interesting point about making allowances in the rules for physical disability, age or other extenuating circumstances. Yes, we want to be inclusive to all, but DO we change the core/fundamental game & principles to accommodate all and non-level the playing field and create instances of non-"apples to apples" scoring? Does USPSA or any other action shooting discipline?

Zack's Outer Limits proposal of net time w/ movement, +3 seconds from the center box is intriguing. It is the same & reminiscent of when the 25 yd. plate (the one now at 20 yd.) on Speed Option was an optional -2 second bonus. It gave EVERY shooter the same opportunity to make a choice based on their skill & confidence level.

Likewise, removing the movement from Outer Limits is a consistent and same COF for EVERY shooter, of ALL skill levels, ages, physical abilities, etc.

How much do we want to maintain consistency, history & tradition verses evolve & change the game? The shooters with the best skills who execute on race day will ALWAYS win, whether it's the overall, or in their age or firearm type division/category.

Jim

[RickT]

Everything below GM and M is entertainment for we of the unwashed masses.  If I had a disability and were just getting started aspiring to get to "A" I'd just DNF OL, but once you've got a time, albeit a really bad one, you're stuck with it for 2-3 years.  IMO 3 seconds seems fair for average shooters.  You've would have to get to 3.4 seconds from the center box to make the "A" threshold which might just be a bit harder than the 3.5 seconds required of the other fast stages, but I don't think anyone would complain.

 

[jkrispies]

12 hours ago, Jim O'Young said:

n 1992 & 93, movement was eliminated from Outer Limits and everyone shot from the center box. When the Mikes reincarnated the Steel Challenge WSSC from the dormant years (1994-96), they also brought back the movement. In their words, "Outer Limits is NOT Outer Limits w/o the movement...)

Fast forward back to today:

John (jkrispies) brings up an interesting point about making allowances in the rules for physical disability, age or other extenuating circumstances. Yes, we want to be inclusive to all, but DO we change the core/fundamental game & principles to accommodate all and non-level the playing field and create instances of non-"apples to apples" scoring? Does USPSA or any other action shooting discipline?

---

Likewise, removing the movement from Outer Limits is a consistent and same COF for EVERY shooter, of ALL skill levels, ages, physical abilities, etc.

How much do we want to maintain consistency, history & tradition verses evolve & change the game? The shooters with the best skills who execute on race day will ALWAYS win, whether it's the overall, or in their age or firearm type division/category.

Jim

Since I have the day off (Merry Christmas everyone!!!) and some time, here's my long-version take on it...

To me, Steel competitions in general are "gateway drugs" into the action shooting sports.  For this reason, inclusiveness of new, young, elderly, and disabled shooters SHOULD BE ENCOURAGED really as part of the intent of Steel.  HOWEVER, I will ALWAYS argue for keeping the rules as simple as possible.  When "special rules for special people" comes into play, then a slippery slope is created and there will never be satisfaction because there will always be continuing questioning and specifying about who qualifies and to what extent.  

For example, if somebody is missing a leg, then they surely qualify for the disability exemption, right?  But (the "abled" guy who might stand to get knocked down a spot in the overall argues) what if that person has a prosthetic which vastly improves his/her ability to move?  Well, then, no, that disabled shooter doesn't qualify!  But (the disabled shooter argues) even with the prosthetic the missing leg does still slow him down some...  Well, then okay!  Give him the exemption!  But what about that guy over there who is "perfectly abled," except he broke his leg and now he's in a cast and on crutches for the next few months?  He doesn't qualify because it's not a permanent injury, you say?  But (the guy on the crutches argues) that guy with the prosthetic is actually moving better than the guy on the crutches, and he qualifies.  That's not fair!  Oh, okay... we'll let the guy on the crutches enact the disabled rule just this once, but only while he's in the cast.  And then the guy on the crutches shoots his best Outer Limits time ever because he doesn't have to move, he beats both the two other guys mentioned above, and his "disabled score" is permanently recorded on his classifier sheet with no mention that he really isn't disabled...

See?  I hope I'm not coming across as a "disabled hater," but rather I'm just trying to make the point that the best solution is to keep the playing field level by either allowing all shooters to have the option of accepting a standard 3+ procedural per run (which would apply at any stage for any reason) or eliminate the movement from Outer Limits altogether, because--let's be honest--the movement in Outer Limits is the sport's ONLY impediment to the "inclusiveness of new, young, elderly, and disabled shooters" that I mentioned above.

But then... as the two Mikes pointed out (via Jim, above), "Outer Limits is NOT Outer Limits w/o the movement" for a very good reason-- without the movement, it's just another perfectly mirrored course, and Steel Challenge already has plenty of those:  Smoke and Hope, and The Pendulum.  Now, let's break it down even further if we consider Outer Limits to be "just another mirrored course."  Smoke and Hope is the close mirrored course.  Outer Limits would become the distant mirrored course.  The Pendulum would become the "middle distance" mirrored course.

In other words:  1) Smoke and Hope is "easy" but fast; 2) Pendulum is the absolute PITA that it is; 3) Outer Limits would be difficult in a mental sense due to distance-- really, a less intimidating but more gratifying The Pendulum.

So, in keeping with the intent of the OP and this thread's focus on the disabled, removing the movement from Outer Limits makes perfect sense, and I support it as a means of increasing SC membership, particularly with regards towards the inclusiveness of new, young, elderly, and disabled shooters.

Now, I'll stray from the OP's question and add another component to the "inclusiveness of new, young, elderly" that I mentioned above...

In my opinion, The Pendulum is more difficult than Outer Limits, even with the movement involved... assuming the shooter isn't disabled.  This can be anecdotally confirmed any weekend around the world simply by hanging out at a Pendulum bay and listening to the amount of whining as squads approach it, as well as the subsequent cussing while the competitors cycle through the box.  Frankly, in my experience, The Pendulum is the only bay that shooters openly dislike.

If further "evolution" of the sport is to be encouraged with the intent of easing stress on shooters (and thus increasing membership), I'd suggest a discussion of the following:  Remove the movement from Outer Limits, and then remove The Pendulum altogeter on the basis that the "new" Outer Limits is its mirrored course replacement.

I'm throwing this out there not only on the basis of The Pendulum being both "displeasingly difficult" to new shooters but becoming altogether unnecesary if the Outer Limits movement is removed, but also because... well... eight stages is a really looooong match!  This is especially true for new shooters.  Again, I'm not saying this simply to shorten the day, but in order to ecourage "inclusiveness of new, young, elderly, and disabled shooters" because seven stages is less intimidating than eight stages.

It's all just my humbly submitted opinion!

Best,

John

[Pasley]

Maybe Zach will weigh in on how many clubs there are that normally shoot all eight stages at the monthly/weekly match.  We shoot six.  I can think of a couple others that only shoot five.

In regards to your comparison of Pendulum with Outer Limits.  I see a lot more people shooting their gun empty on Outer Limits than on Pendulum.

 

I also want to say that much of the discussion on this thread seems to be coming at it from the dot sighted rifle perspective.  C class shooters find the 20 and 35 yard targets pretty challenging with an iron sighted pistol.

[jkrispies]

Mea Culpa at approaching it from the (more recent) perspective of RFRO.  However, I've shot it plenty of times with an 8 round 1911, and felt the same way then.  It's all a matter of personal perspective.

My current club shoots 6 stages, but I started out as a member of ISI shooting Steel Challenge at the club in Piru where all 8 stages were set up permanently.  I can attest that a full day of 8 stages can be not only physically draining, but somewhat financially as well.  Throw in all the misses I was making with my .45acp, and after 8 stages I felt like I was spending a small fortune on ammo.  When I later took up USPSA, I felt like I was making money with my 150 round 6 stage matches, versus twice the number of rounds rounds I was shooting on a full 8 stage Steel Challenge after accounting for the misses.  

[ZackJones]

1 hour ago, Pasley said:

Maybe Zach will weigh in on how many clubs there are that normally shoot all eight stages at the monthly/weekly match.  We shoot six.  I can think of a couple others that only shoot five.

Let me see what I can dig up. I'll report back later. I will say off the top of my head I don't know of any clubs that run all 8 every month though.

[Thomas H]

We only run 6 at each match.  However, we shift the stages we shoot so that we shoot all 8 stages equal times over the year.

Maybe I missed something, but I'm not sure why that is relevant. 

I personally like the fact that OL has movement.  It isn't much, but it tests one skill that the others don't--which is not really movement (it is only three steps or so) but the ability to get an accurate shot off quickly after movement. 

Separate from that, I don't see why it is actually a problem with regard to figuring out who can/cannot take the procedural per string and shoot from the center box.  Can you perform the movement safely without injury?  Yes? Then move.  If you can't perform the movement safely without injury, then no movement, but a procedural per string.

It isn't based on any required proof of disability, or temporary disability.  The competitor requests the MD allow them to take the penalty on each string vice performing the movement, explains why to the MD, the MD makes the call. 

 

Edited December 23, 2016 by Thomas H
Apparently I can't tell the difference between "with" and "without."

[RickT]

4 hours ago, ZackJones said:

Let me see what I can dig up. I'll report back later. I will say off the top of my head I don't know of any clubs that run all 8 every month though.

The San Luis Obispo club (SLOSA) shoots all eight stages every month ( as an example).  CCPL in Clovis, CA shoots 6 or 7.

If not moving falls under the procedural category with a 3 second penalty that seems fine and really would have little, if any, impact on someone trying to claw their way up one classification level in the D through A range.

 

 

[hornetx40]

In FL Volusia County shoots 8 stages twice every month. Port Malabar shoots 7 each month rotating between the 2 long stages each month and they plan to go to 8 when construction allows, and Frost Proof is starting a monthly 8 stage match this January.