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DocMedic

Help me understand why my stage is illegal

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The end looks fine but I am confused about the start: "Standing outside shooting area with fingers touching both set of X’s."

There seems to be only one set of X's. :P

 

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You could even add two more targets in the back, have 12 shots available from each location, not require more than 8, and still be legal.

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1 hour ago, DocMedic said:

i don't know why i can't edit this post

Edited by racerba

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2 hours ago, Kraj said:

1.2.1.2 Medium Courses: must not require more than 20 rounds to complete and no more than 3 shooting locations. Course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location 
or view.

Location - A physical space within the boundaries of a course of fire. For the purposes of this rule, a competitor will not be considered to have changed location until both feet have moved to a new physical position.

View - A range of sight or vision specific to an array of targets. In order to constitute a new "view" under this rule, the range of sight of an array of targets must be broken by a vision barrier of some sort, such that a different array of targets is seen in the new view.

 

 

2 hours ago, SCTaylor said:

View - A range of sight or vision specific to an array of targets. In order to constitute a new "view" under this rule, the range of sight of an array of targets must be broken by a vision barrier of some sort, such that a different array of targets is seen in the new view.

 

Edit - Kraj beat me.

 

2 hours ago, Sarge said:

Different. This stage looks fine to me. 

Location ...........................A physical space within the boundaries of a course of fire. For the purposes of this rule, a competitor will not be considered to have changed location until both feet have moved to a new physical position. 

View ................................A range of sight or vision specific to an array of targets. In order to constitute a new "view" under this rule, the range of sight of an array of targets must be broken by a vision barrier of some sort, such that a

different array of targets is seen in the new view. 

Thanks, guys.  I've always heard the term "shooting position" or just "position."  I haven't gotten deep enough into the rule book to realize that the terms "location" and "view" were used, much less defined.

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ok - i think it works now...

in reply to Sarge's comment...if in your example, i stand to the left of the window, i can only see 3 targets...i shoot them and move to the right where i can see the other two...so that is legal by your reasoning that by moving two steps, makes the stage legal...

I don't think the way you shoot a position makes a position legal or not...

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Your using your phone, and you hit quote, and try to back out. Only way I've notice to fix it is get on your PC or open the Non Mobile version of the website.

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I'm on a pc and i even rebooted...well, whatever happened, i think it fixed itself...

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Mosher - depends on how wide the stage is and how far you have to move...if all i have to do is lean left and right to shoot the two targets, then no - it will still be illegal...looking at the distance you have to move laterally in the OP's stage, i would consider it an illegal stage...but that is MHO...I would say that this is one of those that are borderline and can go either way...like what is a catch in the NFL nowadays...

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Here's is the thing "must not require". I'm not requiring the shooter to go to the very front fault line to shoot all the shots that are available there. From the very moment that the shooter turns the corner of the hallway the first open METRIC is seen and then the plate rack shows as seen another few degrees, HOWEVER you cannot see the 45* degree laydown Metrics until you got to the Forward fault line, therefore the stage is Legal.

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6 minutes ago, DocMedic said:

Here's is the thing "must not require". I'm not requiring the shooter to go to the very front fault line to shoot all the shots that are available there. From the very moment that the shooter turns the corner of the hallway the first open METRIC is seen and then the plate rack shows as seen another few degrees, HOWEVER you cannot see the 45* degree laydown Metrics until you got to the Forward fault line, therefore the stage is Legal.

I'm not saying your argument isn't valid...however...IMHO...it is no more than a step to be able to see the 45* targets...so - IMHO - it's still the same location/view...i consider the entrance to the front area (as you say - turn the corner) and the whole front area as one location/view because it's no more than a step to get from one side to the other...again - just MHO...

in the opening post, you ask why this stage was/would be illegal...we gave you the reason as to why it would be illegal...whether it is or it isn't hasn't been identified...maybe an email to NROI will help with your explanation of how it would be legal.  I would say that any design that can be closely contested as being legal or not should be fixed so there are no questions to the legality of the stage.  No point in having a stage to be thrown out of a match because of it being ruled illegal.  All it is is a matter of moving two targets to make sure the stage is legal.

Edited by racerba

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2 minutes ago, racerba said:

I'm not saying your argument isn't valid...however...IMHO...it is no more than a step to be able to see the 45* targets...so - IMHO - it's still the same location/view...i consider the entrance to the front area (as you say - turn the corner) and the whole front area as one location/view because it's no more than a step to get from one side to the other...again - just MHO...

I hope this all a friendly debate! :)

but i thInk you are using location too loosely.  According to the rules if you can change the location of your feet you have changed location even if it's a step. 

My opinion is location is not a place on the COF as much as it is the spot where the shooter is standing on the COF

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11 minutes ago, DocMedic said:

Here's is the thing "must not require". I'm not requiring the shooter to go to the very front fault line to shoot all the shots that are available there. From the very moment that the shooter turns the corner of the hallway the first open METRIC is seen and then the plate rack shows as seen another few degrees, HOWEVER you cannot see the 45* degree laydown Metrics until you got to the Forward fault line, therefore the stage is Legal.

Agree :)

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5 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I hope this all a friendly debate! :)

but i thInk you are using location too loosely.  According to the rules if you can change the location of your feet you have changed location even if it's a step. 

My opinion is location is not a place on the COF as much as it is the spot where the shooter is standing on the COF

This makes the most sense to me.

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21 minutes ago, racerba said:

ok - i think it works now...

in reply to Sarge's comment...if in your example, i stand to the left of the window, i can only see 3 targets...i shoot them and move to the right where i can see the other two...so that is legal by your reasoning that by moving two steps, makes the stage legal...

CORRECT

I believe the rule even addresses something being there that requires you to move your feet to see around it

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14 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I hope this all a friendly debate! :)

but i thInk you are using location too loosely.  According to the rules if you can change the location of your feet you have changed location even if it's a step. 

My opinion is location is not a place on the COF as much as it is the spot where the shooter is standing on the COF

of course it's a friendly debate...

I disagree with the fact that if you change your feet, no matter how small the movement is, it's a change of location...our 5 targets array from a window is a prime example of how that does not work...

Stage design does not take into account of where the shooter places their feet.

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Legal.  Pause the video when the open shooter comes around the corner and you can only see the plate rack and 1 pacer target, hence 1 view, he then takes a step or two and the targets behind the barrel become visible, that would be another location and view, looks VERY legal to me

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It's kind of an annoying stage from the SS or Revo point of view but probably legal. What confuses me is the start:

" Standing outside shooting area with fingers touching both set of X’s. "

I only see one set of X's :P

 

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So Here's my question regarding the 5 targets one window. IF you started the shooter 5 feet back facing the window. he can only see 3 targets through the window at the start but can see all 5 through the window when he moves up after the start, is it still illegal?

Edited by DocMedic

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10 minutes ago, DocMedic said:

So Here's my question regarding the 5 targets one window. IF you started the shooter 5 feet back facing the window. he can only see 3 targets through the window at the start but can see all 5 through the window when he moves up after the start, is it still illegal?

I would call it legal, as long as there is another target that he cannot shoot through the window, as all targets cant be shot from 1 position, (assuming a field course)

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1 hour ago, racerba said:
29 minutes ago, DocMedic said:

So Here's my question regarding the 5 targets one window. IF you started the shooter 5 feet back facing the window. he can only see 3 targets through the window at the start but can see all 5 through the window when he moves up after the start, is it still illegal?

No. Assuming it's 10 shots, even though you use 2 locations in the example,  it's still one view. If you see the same 5 targets from 3 positions its still just one view. 

 

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31 minutes ago, DocMedic said:

So Here's my question regarding the 5 targets one window. IF you started the shooter 5 feet back facing the window. he can only see 3 targets through the window at the start but can see all 5 through the window when he moves up after the start, is it still illegal?

5 feet back, i would say yes...it would be legal, assuming that there are other targets to engage while he is 5 feet back - shooting location.

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