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DocMedic

Help me understand why my stage is illegal

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On Sunday I put together two stages for my local USPSA match. A recent graduate of the CRO class told me that my stage was illegal because it required more then 8 shots from one location. I argued that no as you had ample room from "both shooting" areas to move around. Attached is the stage diagram. Linked is one of our open shooters doing a POC of the stage, the stage starts at 1:14 in the vid

 

 

PPPS 16-98b.doc

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You mean at the end with the plate rack. Tell that "new CRO" to send the vid to Troy.

I see a whole friggin shooting area to move around in up there.

 

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I'm adding a photo of the stage diagram below.  Was it possible to engage the green circled target from the start position (around the no-shoots)?

 

XmqGmU7.jpg

Edited by TennJeep1618

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Yep looks illegal to me too. Too many shots required from the last shooting position. With the back port as tight as it is, from what I just saw, it's too close to be considered legal. Push the first barrel-hidden target out a bit so you can see it coming across before you get to the last port and it makes the required shots from the last position just the plate rack and the other barrel-hidden metric.

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14 minutes ago, TennJeep1618 said:

I'm adding a photo of the stage diagram below.  Was it possible to engage the green circled target from the start position (around the no-shoots)?

 

XmqGmU7.jpg

Yes though it be quite a lean, the no shoots where placed to block the two targets in the middle from being shot from the left side of the wall to protect the far walls from being cross shot.

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1 hour ago, DocMedic said:

Yes though it be quite a lean, the no shoots where placed to block the two targets in the middle from being shot from the left side of the wall to protect the far walls from being cross shot.

If that's the case, then your CRO's point is invalid.  The green circled target doesn't have to be engaged from the last position, therefore: legal.

 

Am I thinking about this incorrectly?  I'm still learning the in's and out's of stage design, but logic tells me I'm correct.

Edit:  Nevermind.  I can't count.

Edited by TennJeep1618

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31 minutes ago, Sarge said:

You mean at the end with the plate rack. Tell that "new CRO" to send the vid to Troy.

I see a whole friggin shooting area to move around in up there.

 

You know I think he had a problem with the beginning of the stage, I really didn't have time to address his issue appropriately as I'm match staff and we still had to get the stages up and running.

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Stage is fine, plate rack and back two targets could be engaged from more than one location or view.

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1 hour ago, TennJeep1618 said:

If that's the case, then your CRO's point is invalid.  The green circled target doesn't have to be engaged from the last position, therefore: legal.

 

Am I thinking about this incorrectly?  I'm still learning the in's and out's of stage design, but logic tells me I'm correct.

It's still 10 shots from the last position...illegal

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51 minutes ago, mosher said:

Stage is fine, plate rack and back two targets could be engaged from more than one location or view.

From where?

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Just now, racerba said:

It's still 10 shots from the last position...illegal

Right.  Apparently I can't count today. Thanks!

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2 minutes ago, racerba said:

It's still 10 shots from the last position...illegal

Serious question here (I'm still learning about stage design):  What constitutes a shooting position?  If I can take 2 steps to the right and still see the same targets, does that mean it's the same position or a different one?

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1.2.1.2 Medium Courses: must not require more than 20 rounds to complete and no more than 3 shooting locations. Course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location 
or view.

Location - A physical space within the boundaries of a course of fire. For the purposes of this rule, a competitor will not be considered to have changed location until both feet have moved to a new physical position.

View - A range of sight or vision specific to an array of targets. In order to constitute a new "view" under this rule, the range of sight of an array of targets must be broken by a vision barrier of some sort, such that a different array of targets is seen in the new view.

 

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View - A range of sight or vision specific to an array of targets. In order to constitute a new "view" under this rule, the range of sight of an array of targets must be broken by a vision barrier of some sort, such that a different array of targets is seen in the new view.

 

Edit - Kraj beat me.

Edited by SCTaylor

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15 minutes ago, TennJeep1618 said:

Serious question here (I'm still learning about stage design):  What constitutes a shooting position?  If I can take 2 steps to the right and still see the same targets, does that mean it's the same position or a different one?

Different. This stage looks fine to me. 

Location ...........................A physical space within the boundaries of a course of fire. For the purposes of this rule, a competitor will not be considered to have changed location until both feet have moved to a new physical position. 

View ................................A range of sight or vision specific to an array of targets. In order to constitute a new "view" under this rule, the range of sight of an array of targets must be broken by a vision barrier of some sort, such that a

different array of targets is seen in the new view. 

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21 minutes ago, TennJeep1618 said:

Serious question here (I'm still learning about stage design):  What constitutes a shooting position?  If I can take 2 steps to the right and still see the same targets, does that mean it's the same position or a different one?

It's a different location but the same view. 

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Nice we all thought the same thing. If you can shuffle your feet at the end of that stage it's legal

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1 minute ago, Kraj said:

It's a different location but the same view. 

And it's location OR view in the book

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The rule also says REQUIRE 8 shots. If a stage has a sweet spot where you can shoot 10 targets that's legal as long as you can't shoot every target in the stage from one spot.

The one location or view rule is much easier understood if you think of a port that has 5 paper targets right inside that you can only see from the port and stand and shoot all ten rounds

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10 minutes ago, Sarge said:

And it's location OR view in the book

it's the same location and view...physically moving your feet 2 steps does not constitute a new location.  If i had 10 shots i can only take through a window...i set myself up on the left of the window, shuffle my feet to the right while i'm shooting at the targets, does that constitute two different locations...no - therefore, illegal...

lol - you used the same example...so by your conclusion, the 5 targets through the ports are illegal, same reasoning as the end of that stage...

Edited by racerba

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Its not one view though as you could had stopped in the back corner of the entrance hall and shoot only the left paper and the plate rack without ever being able to engage the 45* degree targets without stepping up to the forward fault line.

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Here's my example, you could had engaged the plate rack and one paper target from the back end of the shooting area and NOT see the laydowns behind the barrels until you got to the forward fault line. so Its not One View.

 

Pic added of me rounding the corner. POV

talk.pdf

FB_IMG_1481654871715.jpg

Edited by DocMedic

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1 hour ago, racerba said:

From where?

The barrels look to be about 6+ feet apart.  Standing directly behind either of them would be a decidedly different location and view.

 

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I believe the determination of this matter rests solely on which of the RMIs is teaching the class. I bet if you surveyed them and they were walking through the stage on the ground, you'd get a pretty even mix of "legal" and "not legal". 

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51 minutes ago, racerba said:

it's the same location and view...physically moving your feet 2 steps does not constitute a new location.  If i had 10 shots i can only take through a window...i set myself up on the left of the window, shuffle my feet to the right while i'm shooting at the targets, does that constitute two different locations...no - therefore, illegal...

lol - you used the same example...so by your conclusion, the 5 targets through the ports are illegal, same reasoning as the end of that stage...

The 5 I spoke of would be illegal if you had to shoot them without moving.

and moving your feet to a new physical location is changing location.

There is plenty of space in this stage for all to be legal

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