DocMedic Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 On Sunday I put together two stages for my local USPSA match. A recent graduate of the CRO class told me that my stage was illegal because it required more then 8 shots from one location. I argued that no as you had ample room from "both shooting" areas to move around. Attached is the stage diagram. Linked is one of our open shooters doing a POC of the stage, the stage starts at 1:14 in the vid PPPS 16-98b.doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 You mean at the end with the plate rack. Tell that "new CRO" to send the vid to Troy. I see a whole friggin shooting area to move around in up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TennJeep1618 Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 (edited) I'm adding a photo of the stage diagram below. Was it possible to engage the green circled target from the start position (around the no-shoots)? Edited December 13, 2016 by TennJeep1618 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morphire Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 Yep looks illegal to me too. Too many shots required from the last shooting position. With the back port as tight as it is, from what I just saw, it's too close to be considered legal. Push the first barrel-hidden target out a bit so you can see it coming across before you get to the last port and it makes the required shots from the last position just the plate rack and the other barrel-hidden metric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted December 13, 2016 Author Share Posted December 13, 2016 14 minutes ago, TennJeep1618 said: I'm adding a photo of the stage diagram below. Was it possible to engage the green circled target from the start position (around the no-shoots)? Yes though it be quite a lean, the no shoots where placed to block the two targets in the middle from being shot from the left side of the wall to protect the far walls from being cross shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TennJeep1618 Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, DocMedic said: Yes though it be quite a lean, the no shoots where placed to block the two targets in the middle from being shot from the left side of the wall to protect the far walls from being cross shot. If that's the case, then your CRO's point is invalid. The green circled target doesn't have to be engaged from the last position, therefore: legal. Am I thinking about this incorrectly? I'm still learning the in's and out's of stage design, but logic tells me I'm correct. Edit: Nevermind. I can't count. Edited December 13, 2016 by TennJeep1618 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted December 13, 2016 Author Share Posted December 13, 2016 31 minutes ago, Sarge said: You mean at the end with the plate rack. Tell that "new CRO" to send the vid to Troy. I see a whole friggin shooting area to move around in up there. You know I think he had a problem with the beginning of the stage, I really didn't have time to address his issue appropriately as I'm match staff and we still had to get the stages up and running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mosher Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 Stage is fine, plate rack and back two targets could be engaged from more than one location or view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 1 hour ago, TennJeep1618 said: If that's the case, then your CRO's point is invalid. The green circled target doesn't have to be engaged from the last position, therefore: legal. Am I thinking about this incorrectly? I'm still learning the in's and out's of stage design, but logic tells me I'm correct. It's still 10 shots from the last position...illegal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 51 minutes ago, mosher said: Stage is fine, plate rack and back two targets could be engaged from more than one location or view. From where? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TennJeep1618 Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 Just now, racerba said: It's still 10 shots from the last position...illegal Right. Apparently I can't count today. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TennJeep1618 Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 2 minutes ago, racerba said: It's still 10 shots from the last position...illegal Serious question here (I'm still learning about stage design): What constitutes a shooting position? If I can take 2 steps to the right and still see the same targets, does that mean it's the same position or a different one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraj Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 1.2.1.2 Medium Courses: must not require more than 20 rounds to complete and no more than 3 shooting locations. Course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view. Location - A physical space within the boundaries of a course of fire. For the purposes of this rule, a competitor will not be considered to have changed location until both feet have moved to a new physical position. View - A range of sight or vision specific to an array of targets. In order to constitute a new "view" under this rule, the range of sight of an array of targets must be broken by a vision barrier of some sort, such that a different array of targets is seen in the new view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCTaylor Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 (edited) View - A range of sight or vision specific to an array of targets. In order to constitute a new "view" under this rule, the range of sight of an array of targets must be broken by a vision barrier of some sort, such that a different array of targets is seen in the new view. Edit - Kraj beat me. Edited December 13, 2016 by SCTaylor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 15 minutes ago, TennJeep1618 said: Serious question here (I'm still learning about stage design): What constitutes a shooting position? If I can take 2 steps to the right and still see the same targets, does that mean it's the same position or a different one? Different. This stage looks fine to me. Location ...........................A physical space within the boundaries of a course of fire. For the purposes of this rule, a competitor will not be considered to have changed location until both feet have moved to a new physical position. View ................................A range of sight or vision specific to an array of targets. In order to constitute a new "view" under this rule, the range of sight of an array of targets must be broken by a vision barrier of some sort, such that a different array of targets is seen in the new view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraj Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 21 minutes ago, TennJeep1618 said: Serious question here (I'm still learning about stage design): What constitutes a shooting position? If I can take 2 steps to the right and still see the same targets, does that mean it's the same position or a different one? It's a different location but the same view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 Nice we all thought the same thing. If you can shuffle your feet at the end of that stage it's legal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 1 minute ago, Kraj said: It's a different location but the same view. And it's location OR view in the book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 The rule also says REQUIRE 8 shots. If a stage has a sweet spot where you can shoot 10 targets that's legal as long as you can't shoot every target in the stage from one spot. The one location or view rule is much easier understood if you think of a port that has 5 paper targets right inside that you can only see from the port and stand and shoot all ten rounds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Sarge said: And it's location OR view in the book it's the same location and view...physically moving your feet 2 steps does not constitute a new location. If i had 10 shots i can only take through a window...i set myself up on the left of the window, shuffle my feet to the right while i'm shooting at the targets, does that constitute two different locations...no - therefore, illegal... lol - you used the same example...so by your conclusion, the 5 targets through the ports are illegal, same reasoning as the end of that stage... Edited December 13, 2016 by racerba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted December 13, 2016 Author Share Posted December 13, 2016 Its not one view though as you could had stopped in the back corner of the entrance hall and shoot only the left paper and the plate rack without ever being able to engage the 45* degree targets without stepping up to the forward fault line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted December 13, 2016 Author Share Posted December 13, 2016 (edited) Here's my example, you could had engaged the plate rack and one paper target from the back end of the shooting area and NOT see the laydowns behind the barrels until you got to the forward fault line. so Its not One View. Pic added of me rounding the corner. POV talk.pdf Edited December 13, 2016 by DocMedic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mosher Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 1 hour ago, racerba said: From where? The barrels look to be about 6+ feet apart. Standing directly behind either of them would be a decidedly different location and view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester121 Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 I believe the determination of this matter rests solely on which of the RMIs is teaching the class. I bet if you surveyed them and they were walking through the stage on the ground, you'd get a pretty even mix of "legal" and "not legal". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 51 minutes ago, racerba said: it's the same location and view...physically moving your feet 2 steps does not constitute a new location. If i had 10 shots i can only take through a window...i set myself up on the left of the window, shuffle my feet to the right while i'm shooting at the targets, does that constitute two different locations...no - therefore, illegal... lol - you used the same example...so by your conclusion, the 5 targets through the ports are illegal, same reasoning as the end of that stage... The 5 I spoke of would be illegal if you had to shoot them without moving. and moving your feet to a new physical location is changing location. There is plenty of space in this stage for all to be legal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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