Reloading Technique

[Heath]

I've only been interested in shooting competitively and training for almost two months now, so this question may be more appropriate for the beginners forum.

I have been practicing a great deal and feel that I've been making some pretty good progress. Working with a timer in live-fire, my draws are around 1-1.1s and splits and transitions are around .22s. Unfortunately, my reloads are lagging behind at about 1.7-1.8s if I don't botch them. I'm shooting a G35 with the intent to shoot production, so I'm not using a magwell. I intend to start practicing reloads very seriously and I'm concerned about ingraining bad technique. Since I haven't been doing this very long, I haven't acquired any training references like Brian's book or Matt's videos. Mostly, I've been using information found on the Internet and in these forums.

I've searched for the answer to my question and read every topic on reloading that I can find, but there's a dearth of information on reloading technique. Currently, I reload with the gun down around my solar plexus and I've been told that I need to get the gun up higher. After doing a lot of reading on the subject I have found that to be the common wisdom. What I don't fully realize is how that would be faster and I haven't been able to find any support for the assertion that it is. I understand that it keeps the eyes up near the target, but I've got pretty good visual acuity, so I don't think that would really buy me much time. I can also see how it might be quicker to simply push the gun straight back out, but I also don't see how that would save much time versus pushing the gun up and out from a lower position.

I started reloading in a lower position because it seemed reasonable to me that it would be faster to bring the gun down to meet the magazine as it is coming out of the pouch. There is another issue that is a physiological one. For some reason I have a limited range of motion in my shoulder such that reloading to a higher position is slightly uncomfortable, not painful at all, but the muscles aren't as relaxed as I would like. I am certain that I could overcome that with some flexibility training.

My question is essentially this: How is reloading to a higher position faster than reloading from a lower position and would it be worthwhile to ingrain that technique? Any advice is appreciated.

[Loves2Shoot]

Watch Travis Tomasie on Saul Kirch's web site.

Keeping the gun high is much more efficient, plus it give you a good view of the magwell.

If you can't see why it is faster watching the video, post again.

[eric nielsen]

Look at the front of the inside of the magwell - right underneath your stronghand pinky. Try that, it's the only way I can reload reliably with no magwell on a Glock.

[Heath]

Watch Travis Tomasie on Saul Kirch's web site.

Keeping the gun high is much more efficient, plus it give you a good view of the magwell.

If you can't see why it is faster watching the video, post again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've already seen the video and while it's apparent that Tomasie is extraordinarily fast, it isn't apparent to me how reloading up high is faster and much more efficient.

Of note is the fact that he is reloading from a mag pouch near his belt buckle. Since I'm reloading from a mag pouch behind the hip bone it takes a bit longer to get the mag up and I deduce that if I bring the gun down to meet the mag, I can get it into the gun sooner.

I have no doubt that my deduction is probably wrong given that people will generally choose to use what works, and this question would have been resolved empirically with the use of a timer. I just want to know why it's probably wrong.

[diehli]

I used to reload low, but gradually switched to reloading higher. Why? It's faster because it's more consistent. Moving one hand to the other is easier to coordinate than moving both hands together. You will move the hand holding the gun down to seat the mag, but that puts it right where you want it to be to get it back on target.

Whatever method you decide on, practice the heck out of it... moving out of positions, mostly.

[shred]

The problem is not how fast you can get get the mag into the gun, it's how fast you can get the gun back on target, as efficiently as possible. Thus the need for in-your-face reloads.

Not only can you see what you're doing without craning your neck down, but if you aren't about to be shooting something, at least you can look where you're going.

The reason people load high-and-close is because while an end-of-arms reload may be faster when standing still, the reliability goes down on the run.

[Loves2Shoot]

Of note is the fact that he is reloading from a mag pouch near his belt buckle.  Since I'm reloading from a mag pouch behind the hip bone it takes a bit longer to get the mag up and I deduce that if I bring the gun down to meet the mag, I can get it into the gun sooner.

It doesn't take any longer to load from the hip than from the buckle.

What Shred said is very acurate, getting back on target is much easier with the gun high.

You can get the gun in the mag before the ejected mag hits your belt with some practice, it's getting the gun on target that is simpler if the gun is high. Less movement = lots of good stuff. The mroe movement you add to the reload the easier it is to screw something up.

Watch TT Very little movement = very freaking fast, and he can load as fast from the hip also.

The getting the mag to the gun quicker theory doesn't hold much water with me, because you can have the mag to the mag well before the old mag falls out with some practice from the hip.

Some people load good low, but it is much more complicated, especially since you can't see the mag well. Seeing is fast and consistant.

Good luck in your journey.

[Heath]

It doesn't take any longer to load from the hip than from the buckle.

While the length of time it takes may not be significant enough to affect the overall reload time, I think that it is very likely that it does take some additional time.

What Shred said is very acurate, getting back on target is much easier with the gun high.

That seems like a perfectly reasonable conclusion, but it's not a problem for me yet. Right now, I'm struggling to shoot as fast as I can see, but I doubt that will continue to be the case. Once I have the basic skills down I'll probably reach a plateau where it will become more important to see faster. Thus the nature of my question. I need to ingrain a technique without the benefit of experience to know which technique is best.

You can get the gun in the mag before the ejected mag hits your belt with some practice, it's getting the gun on target that is simpler if the gun is high. Less movement = lots of good stuff. The mroe movement you add to the reload the easier it is to screw something up.

Watch TT Very little movement = very freaking fast, and he can load as fast from the hip also.

I agree that economy of motion is crucial, that's an excellent point. My major concern is the speed at which one can get the mag to the gun. Based on your comments and videos that I've seen, it seems like that becomes a non-issue with practice.

The getting the mag to the gun quicker theory doesn't hold much water with me, because you can have the mag to the mag well before the old mag falls out with some practice from the hip.

As I stated, it's a deduction, not a theory. I made the deduction based on my reasoning which I suspected was flawed. Now I'm trying to find out why it's flawed. If you asked me to posit a theory then I would contend that reloading to the high position is faster because it seems to be the more widely accepted technique among the most skilled shooters, but I couldn't explain why.

Some people load good low, but it is much more complicated, especially since you can't see the mag well. Seeing is fast and consistant.

The obvious conclusion at this point is that I should probably choose to ingrain the technique that is more widely accepted, but that still doesn't satisfy my curiosity. If reloading high is the faster technique, I'd still like to understand precisely why. From what I gather, the component movements of the reload aren't necessarilly any faster, but the high reload is more reliable and target acquisition following the reload is faster.

[Clay1]

Reloads for me have finally started to come together and that wasn't always the case. Practice them over and over and see what you get for times. That doesn't mean do 3 or 4 and then move on to something else.

Brian and Matt explain these things better than I but I will try and go through my reload sequence. One of the things that I read on this forum that really dropped my time was to go for the new mag NOW! I use to push the mag release as the first order of priority, but now I start to move my weak hand first. There really isn't a first and then do something else, but the focus on moving my weak hand cut tenths off of my reloading times.

The "in your face" reload for me takes the gun from the firing position and moves it back to my solar plexis. My strong arm just folds at the elbow and the elbow rests against my rib cag which stabilizes the gun which is canted so that I can see the inside of the mag well. When you insert the new mag into the well look at the inside of the mag well until the mag is in - not just a glimpse, but rather look at what you are trying to hit. Many speak of "looking" the magazine in.

Put a little focus on going for the new mag NOW and report back - I think that you will be pleasantly surprised. Good luck.

Rick

[Skywalker]

Heat,

reloading in the high position is faster because of the visualization.

Basically, if you reload low, you won't properly visualize your reload: you're mostly going by muscle memory to the position where the mag is aligned with the magwell.

On the contrary, if you reload high, your sight is driving your movements, and this is faster.

The same applies for driving the gun on targets with your eyes vs following the front sight until it's on a target. You already know which one is faster.

Besides that, the fumble factor is higher when you don't properly see and visualize what you're doing.

[mcoliver]

Heath, if reloading that low for you works equally well when you're just standing, as well as, moving then stick to that.

To find out where you're losing time, you have to break the reload down into the smallest parts possible.

1. Your reaction time.

2. Hitting the mag catch.

3. Going for the spare and getting a decent/consistent grip on the mag.

4. Bringing the spare to the well.

5. Inserting the mag and reacquiring grip.

6. Getting sight pic.

Note that if you use the strong thumb to hit the mag catch, items 2 & 3 can be done at the same time. And probably for the close stuff, you can do 6 as soon as your hands meet.

Going back to the point of gun-meeting-mag, as shred had said, most people find it easier to do a mag change while moving with the gun higher. So naturally, there's no point using another when you're just standing. It's also safer for the simple reason that you can see peripherally where you're going. If you can do that with your current technique, then you should be fine. But it would still help you one way or another if you try to explore different techniques.

Try to post a vid of yourself doing a reload. These guys are good at finding faults.....wait, that didn't sound right.

[Heath]

Reloads for me have finally started to come together and that wasn't always the case.  Practice them over and over and see what you get for times.  That doesn't mean do 3 or 4 and then move on to something else.

I just did about a thousand. I was just trying to get the technique down, so I wasn't using a par timer.

Brian and Matt explain these things better than I but I will try and go through my reload sequence.  One of the things that I read on this forum that really dropped my time was to go for the new mag NOW!  I use to push the mag release as the first order of priority, but now I start to move my weak hand first.  There really isn't a first and then do something else, but the focus on moving my weak hand cut tenths off of my reloading times.

I read this in an earlier thread and have put it into practice, though not consistently. It has helped, but I think it will be more useful in live-fire when transitioning off of targets. Right now, I'm mostly just focused on getting the mag in the gun.

The "in your face" reload for me takes the gun from the firing position and moves it back to my solar plexis.  My strong arm just folds at the elbow and the elbow rests against my rib cag which stabilizes the gun which is canted so that I can see the inside of the mag well.  When you insert the new mag into the well look at the inside of the mag well until the mag is in - not just a glimpse, but rather look at what you are trying to hit.  Many speak of "looking" the magazine in.

Put a little focus on going for the new mag NOW and report back - I think that you  will be pleasantly surprised.  Good luck.

I've also read a great deal about "seeing" the mag into the well. I've added a white stripe to the inside of the magwell to give something to focus on during the reload.

After practicing this for a couple hours, I think I now understand why the actual movement of reloading up high is faster. It is apparent, that the less the gun moves, the faster the reload is going to be. I assume that this is the result of inertia from the mass of the gun. When pulling the gun down low with the strong hand I can't develop the same hand speed as I can with the weak hand going for the magazine.

My initial hesitation to employ this technique comes as a result of the fact that reloading in front of my face puts a couple of muscles into tension that are constantly sore from rock climbing twice a week. A little stretching fixed that right up.

I still need to practice this a lot more before it becomes automatic. The Tomasie video really helped with the specific details of the technique. Tomorrow, I'll try to post a video and see if I can get a critique.

[dirtypool40]

I also thought the IPSC point of hip position would be a hinder, but once I practiced, it wasn't. Neither were the short mags, or small magwell. It's a practice and state of mind thing.

I do think "in your face" loads are easier when using the small magwell.

[infinity]

I also thought the IPSC point of hip position would be a hinder, but once I practiced, it wasn't.  Neither were the short mags, or small magwell.  It's a practice and state of mind thing.

I do think "in your face" loads are easier when using the small magwell.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

the smoother u can reload the faster ur time will be..practice makes perfect. reloading from a low position will take its toll on time since u'll have a longer time to get ur sights back. i know it's redudant but i just wanted to emphasize on it. keep on practicing it during dry fire practice.

Good Luck!!!

[Loves2Shoot]

I'm glad to see you are figuring it out for yourself. That is why my first post was very simplistic. What we figure out through our own experience (when pointed in the right general direction) seems to stick better. The video of Travis when analysed is a great teaching tool.

The bottom line for me, is seeing is quick. If you see it, it feels slow, which is fast because there is no confusion and you do only what you need to do which equals smooth, and we know smooth is fast Clear as mud?

[Flexmoney]

I shoot a Glock 35 with no magwell.

Get your damn gun up for those reloads. SEE them.

[Heath]

I shoot a Glock 35 with no magwell.

Get your damn gun up for those reloads.  SEE them. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've spent a lot of time practicing this the past couple of days and it's harder than it seems. If I don't focus on getting the gun up and seeing into the chute I tend to get lax and start reloading by feel at about shoulder level. Then I start missing with the magazine and it all just goes to hell from there. Watching that Travis Tomasie video has helped a great deal, though.

[Flexmoney]

Then I start missing with the magazine and it all just goes to hell from there.

Yeah...that sounds about right. When we get away from the seeing, we give up our most trusted feedback and best form of guidance and control. When we get more and more into just using the feel, we lose refinement. Variables, such as match tension (false feel), can throw us way off course.

[kevin c]

Then I start missing with the magazine and it all just goes to hell from there.

Yeah...that sounds about right. When we get away from the seeing, we give up our most trusted feedback and best form of guidance and control. When we get more and more into just using the feel, we lose refinement. Variables, such as match tension (false feel), can throw us way off course.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Vision allows us to adjust. We can all drive/walk/reload blindfolded, but seeing allows us to make those subtle compensations for the small and often cumulative errors we make as we proceed with the task, or for the extra variables brought in by every situation that varies from our practice ideal. (sorry, did that come across as pompous?)

For me, at least, seeing is more sure, and I can see better with the gun up high.

Another factor is economy of motion. The goal of reloading is to allow you to continue to shoot, as soon as possible. If you bring the gun down from the shooting position, you have to bring it back up to shoot again. The lower you go, the high you have to go to get back.

A related question here (I'm definitely still learning here too, Heath). I've heard of floating the mag in. Just how much seating force are you sub one second folks using? I no longer "double tap" the mag, but a hard insertion, slamming the mag home, seems inefficient. But when I try to just throw the mag in without positive seating force, it falls back out half the time.

Kevin C.

[Flexmoney]

I've heard of floating the mag in. Just how much seating force are you sub one second folks using? I no longer "double tap" the mag, but a hard insertion, slamming the mag home, seems inefficient. But when I try to just throw the mag in without positive seating force, it falls back out half the time.

Kevin C.

Jake came down to my place a month or so ago. I had some of my gear sitting out. Jake (who, most know, has hit the dry fire pretty hard this last year) was used to his Open STI gear. When he went to throw one of my Glock mags into my gun, it went about half and inch into the mag opening...then fell down to the floor.

That just shows it is just what you are used to...and what it takes to get the job done with YOUR equipment.

[Flexmoney]

Heath,

Just so you aren't beating your head against a wall for anything that I posted...

For me, the key is to see what I need to to make the reload. Seems like I get the best vision with the gun high. But, I am not fighting an type on injury in that area.

If you have an injury that is truely limiting you, then you will have to adjust as best you can. But..then...work to fix the injury, and get back on whatever will prove to work best for you.

[Clay1]

One comment on seating mags with some force. On my Glock 34 if I seat the mag on a mag change with some force the slide drops automatically. I wish that I could get it to do it 100% of the time but at this point it is probably close to 75% successful.

Anyone know how to make this a 100% occurance?

[Loves2Shoot]

One comment on seating mags with some force.  On my Glock 34 if I seat the mag on a mag change with some force the slide drops automatically.  I wish that I could get it to do it 100% of the time but at this point it is probably close to 75% successful.

Anyone know how to make this a 100% occurance?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't shoot it to slide lock

[Clay1]

Yes, I know. I happen to shoot the one and only true practical handgun game around known as uspsa and then I shoot the OTHER one that few on this board seem to recognize (idpa). For me - trigger time is trigger time and the more matches that I shoot and experience the better off I will be. In that OTHER game, we need to shoot to slide lock per the COF on many occations.

I was the same way with shotguns. There were skeet specialist, trap guys, sporting clays afficinados, live bird pigeon blaster etc. I had the philosophy that if it flys I should be able to hit it with some mastery of the gun. My goal is (I am not close by the way) that if you shoot it with a handgun, I should be able to play and do reasonably well.

Just one boys way of thinking of things. In the big scheme of things that means nothing at all.

Rick

[XRe]

Just one boys way of thinking of things.  In the big scheme of things that means nothing at all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rick - I think you just thought your way into taking Scott's comment personally He's just jokin' at you, man Shoot everything you can - it's all good!