PCC SWEEPING

[TxD]

11 hours ago, dcloudy777 said:

11 hours ago, dcloudy777 said:

I and the other handful of PCC shooters at the club I shoot at have just been unbagging/bagging at the line.  It's fast, it's easy.

Unload & show clear, hammer down, in the bag, range is safe.  Seemed a little awkward until I actually shot a stage and did it.  It adds no time, certainly not as much as futzing around with dumb chamber flags (or the occasional "can't get the gun back in the holster" moments that happen to everyone from time to time, for that matter).

On stages that "end" a long way from the start position, the RO, scorekeeper, or even another shooter can lag behind with the shooter's bag so it's available at the end of the stage.

Just to be clear. The command after "Hammer down" is "Flag".

Per PCC 8.3.7.1 the carbine must have a chamber flag inserted or bolt open before bagging or properly carrying from the line. Also when unbagging at the line (under supervision of the RO), the carbine must come out of the case with the bolt open or chamber flag installed.

8.3.7.1, PCC:   “Bolt closed, hammer down, flag”.  While continuing to point the carbine safely downrange, the competitor must perform a final safety check of the carbine by closing the bolt on an empty chamber, pulling the trigger, and then inserting the chamber flag or locking the bolt open.  The carbine must then be transported with the muzzle reasonably vertically up or down off the stage to a rack or case.  Carbines may also be cased and transported off the stage in the case.  When casing PCC’s, the muzzle must point at a side berm or backstop.  Failure to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing will result in a DQ per PCC 10.5.2.1

Also, ROs should not be required to carry a shooters equipment during a course of fire. They already have enough responsibilities.   

 

 

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, TxD said:

 

Plus 100

[dcloudy777]

Wow... they just really want to do this the dumb way that ignores safety rules, don't they?

 

Why have the division if you're terrified of the guns?

Chamber flags encourage poor gun handling, introduce a risk of bore obstruction, and involve more gun manipulation (manipulation  is what causes NDs), and add exactly zero safety.

 

Edited November 28, 2016 by dcloudy777

[Patrick Scott]

12 minutes ago, dcloudy777 said:

Wow... they just really want to do this the dumb way that ignores safety rules, don't they?

 

Why have the division if you're terrified of the guns?

Chamber flags encourage poor gun handling, introduce a risk of bore obstruction, and involve more gun manipulation (manipulation  is what causes NDs), and add exactly zero safety.

 

If have data to back up those statements I'd like to see it.

[teros135]

1 hour ago, dcloudy777 said:

Wow... they just really want to do this the dumb way that ignores safety rules, don't they?

 

Why have the division if you're terrified of the guns?

Chamber flags encourage poor gun handling, introduce a risk of bore obstruction, and involve more gun manipulation (manipulation  is what causes NDs), and add exactly zero safety.

 

This makes no sense to me.  If handling a gun in any way is unsafe, we're in the wrong sport because we're constantly handling guns.

And who said they're "terrified" of the guns?

Actually, this sounds like the "logic" of a PCC advocate, not real truth.  Well, less like "logic", more like "argument".

Edited November 28, 2016 by teros135

[Rangerdug]

Chamber flags encourage poor gun handling, introduce a risk of bore obstruction, and involve more gun manipulation (manipulation  is what causes NDs), and add exactly zero safety.

 

Manipulation??? Really!?! No stupidity causes ND's!!!
You are manipulating a gun, every match. If you can't insert and remove a chamber flag, or manipulate a firearm safely you have no right shooting.
The other flaw in your argument is that a chamber flag is somehow going to introduce an obstruction is ludicrous. Show me the incidents of guns blowing up due to the use of chamber flags.
I would say to you instead of wasting your energy on a non-issue. Pick a battle that needs to be fought, this ain't it.



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[mreed911]

11 hours ago, TxD said:

 

Where is the requirement that the bolt be open when it comes out of the bag?  I can't find that one.  We've been bagging/unbagging at the line and while we're all using flags just because it's easier to see, there's no requirement that they be used as long as the bolt can be held open and is in such condition when bagged.

In your assertion, I'd need to partially open my bag to look at my bolt, reach in blind and open it if it appeared close, then continue unbagging... so that the RO would never "see" an bolt-closed action.  Given that a Production handgun is a closed action, unflagged, in the same condition, your logic doesn't hold through unless, as noted above, I've missed a specific requirement re: unbagging.

[IHAVEGAS]

2 hours ago, dcloudy777 said:

Wow... they just really want to do this the dumb way that ignores safety rules, don't they?

 

Why have the division if you're terrified of the guns?

Chamber flags encourage poor gun handling, introduce a risk of bore obstruction, and involve more gun manipulation (manipulation  is what causes NDs), and add exactly zero safety.

 

Serious, or just trolling ?

[teros135]

11 hours ago, TxD said:

Per PCC 8.3.7.1 the carbine must have a chamber flag inserted or bolt open before bagging or properly carrying from the line. Also when unbagging at the line (under supervision of the RO), the carbine must come out of the case with the bolt open or chamber flag installed.

 

7 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

Where is the requirement that the bolt be open when it comes out of the bag?  I can't find that one.  We've been bagging/unbagging at the line and while we're all using flags just because it's easier to see, there's no requirement that they be used as long as the bolt can be held open and is in such condition when bagged.

In your assertion, I'd need to partially open my bag to look at my bolt, reach in blind and open it if it appeared close, then continue unbagging... so that the RO would never "see" an bolt-closed action.  Given that a Production handgun is a closed action, unflagged, in the same condition, your logic doesn't hold through unless, as noted above, I've missed a specific requirement re: unbagging.

See above, quoted from a recent post.  Let the trolling continue!

[dcloudy777]

No trolling, just an opinion.

 

Chamber flags are dumb.  They give up an (admittedly very small) degree of actual safety in order to make everyone "feel" safer.

 

[IHAVEGAS]

8 hours ago, dcloudy777 said:

No trolling, just an opinion.

 

Chamber flags are dumb.  They give up an (admittedly very small) degree of actual safety in order to make everyone "feel" safer.

 

Fair enough, we all have em  .

When I see language like "the dumb way" and "terrified of guns" I start wondering if that person is posting just to get a rise. 

Feeling safe is a big deal to me, it keeps things fun, so even if that was all I got it would be appreciated and of value. 

[PatJones]

No trolling, just an opinion.

 

Chamber flags are dumb.  They give up an (admittedly very small) degree of actual safety in order to make everyone "feel" safer.

 

Huh? What degree of safety is given up? The bolt is held to the rear, and the presence of a flag shows the chamber is empty. The flag makes the rifle more inert than a holster does to a handgun. Most of the rifle sports I'm aware of require chamber flags.

Putting your rifle in a bag without a flag doesn't magically contain a ND, it just makes everyone "feel" better because they can't see the muzzle sweeping them.

Retrieving the bag from the start position at the end of a course of fire slows down the squad. If you have a squad with 9 PCC shooters and they each take an additional 20 seconds retrieve their bag, that adds 3 minutes to that squad's time at each stage. Over a 15 stage sectional, that adds up to 45 minutes of delay and now you're backing up all the squads behind them.

A chamber flag can be carried in a pocket, it renders the firearm inert and it is easily visible to everyone on the stage. Once the rifle is flagged, the competitor should be free to go bag it without RO supervision. Carry it muzzle up until it's in a bag, don't sweep anyone going into the bag.

Sweeping fellow shooters, even with a flagged rifle is bad practice, and we should have a rule to cover this. I do think we want to allow bagging to occur away from RO supervision for the reasons I noted above. A lack of RO supervision makes a DQ difficult to enforce fairly.

If we require muzzle up carry, most rifles will be held by their forend. This encourages much better muzzle discipline than holding the rifle by the grip with the rifle pointing generally down.

If we allow bagging/unbagging away from the course of fire, do we want to designate a specific point in the bay where this is to occur? Would this make it easier to monitor? It seems that requiring muzzles to point into the side berm while bagging is a reasonable restriction.

[TxD]

11 hours ago, mreed911 said:

Where is the requirement that the bolt be open when it comes out of the bag?  I can't find that one.  We've been bagging/unbagging at the line and while we're all using flags just because it's easier to see, there's no requirement that they be used as long as the bolt can be held open and is in such condition when bagged.

In your assertion, I'd need to partially open my bag to look at my bolt, reach in blind and open it if it appeared close, then continue unbagging... so that the RO would never "see" an bolt-closed action.  Given that a Production handgun is a closed action, unflagged, in the same condition, your logic doesn't hold through unless, as noted above, I've missed a specific requirement re: unbagging.

I'm sorry that I didn't make that specific point more clear. Although English is my first language I tend to think using profanity.

The specific requirement as stated in your last sentence is not "unbagging" but the condition of the PCC while transported in the bag.

Here are the pertinent parts of 8.3.7.1, PCC:  , the competitor must perform a final safety check of the carbine by closing the bolt on an empty chamber, pulling the trigger, and then inserting the chamber flag or locking the bolt open.  The carbine must then be transported with the muzzle reasonably vertically up or down off the stage to a rack or case.  Carbines may also be cased and transported off the stage in the case. 

Please note the last item in the FINAL SAFETY CHECK is chamber flag or bolt open. This is the FINAL condition of the PCC as it goes into the bag. This will be the condition of the PCC as it is moved around the other competitors and to the next stage. Therefore other competitors may assume the PCC is in a safe condition as presently required by rule, and further that the PCC will be in this condition when "unbagged" at the line under the supervision of the RO.

Safe condition handgun rules should not be used/compared to PCC safe condition rules as they are different.

Just trying to help out and clarify here.

[mreed911]

27 minutes ago, TxD said:

The specific requirement as stated in your last sentence is not "unbagging" but the condition of the PCC while transported in the bag.

Here are the pertinent parts of 8.3.7.1, PCC:  , the competitor must perform a final safety check of the carbine by closing the bolt on an empty chamber, pulling the trigger, and then inserting the chamber flag or locking the bolt open.  The carbine must then be transported with the muzzle reasonably vertically up or down off the stage to a rack or case.  Carbines may also be cased and transported off the stage in the case. 

Please note the last item in the FINAL SAFETY CHECK is chamber flag or bolt open. This is the FINAL condition of the PCC as it goes into the bag. This will be the condition of the PCC as it is moved around the other competitors and to the next stage. Therefore other competitors may assume the PCC is in a safe condition as presently required by rule, and further that the PCC will be in this condition when "unbagged" at the line under the supervision of the RO.

So, to start: I'm actually in agreement with "all flagged, all the time."  That said, just because the final check is chamber flag OR bolt open doesn't mean it comes out of the bag that way.  If we're not using flags (instead using the "bolt open" approach when bagging) there are any number of ways a bolt could close while a PCC is bagged and, absent a rule requiring the bolt be open when unbagged, that's not an actual requirement that exists today.

Also note there is no definition of "bagged."  It's entirely within the rules to simply place the carbine in a bag (think your typical "AR" zipper bag), not zip it, and carry it around/lay it around willy nilly.  Not that it's smart or polite, but we're not discussing that.

It reminds me of a thread on reddit, I believe, where someone asked if they could get a tac vest for their german shepherd and put a gun on the side of their dog when they went for a walk.  THEY aren't carrying and there are no laws prohibiting dogs from carrying firearms so it would technically not be illegal.  Smart? Safe? Useful?  Completely different argument.

[dcloudy777]

So should bagged handguns have flags as well?

[mreed911]

9 minutes ago, dcloudy777 said:

So should bagged handguns have flags as well?

When, in USPSA, are bagged handguns allowed?

[bret]

6 minutes ago, dcloudy777 said:

So should bagged handguns have flags as well?

Bagged handguns are not handled anywhere but the safe area most of the time, occasionally a handgun will be bagged on the line but it is rare.

A holstered gun has no access to the trigger.

[TxD]

5 hours ago, mreed911 said:

So, to start: I'm actually in agreement with "all flagged, all the time."  That said, just because the final check is chamber flag OR bolt open doesn't mean it comes out of the bag that way.  If we're not using flags (instead using the "bolt open" approach when bagging) there are any number of ways a bolt could close while a PCC is bagged and, absent a rule requiring the bolt be open when unbagged, that's not an actual requirement that exists today.

Also note there is no definition of "bagged."  It's entirely within the rules to simply place the carbine in a bag (think your typical "AR" zipper bag), not zip it, and carry it around/lay it around willy nilly.  Not that it's smart or polite, but we're not discussing that.

It reminds me of a thread on reddit, I believe, where someone asked if they could get a tac vest for their german shepherd and put a gun on the side of their dog when they went for a walk.  THEY aren't carrying and there are no laws prohibiting dogs from carrying firearms so it would technically not be illegal.  Smart? Safe? Useful?  Completely different argument.

lots of strawmen here.

I respect your view and choose to leave it as agree to disagree.

Good luck. Be safe.

[teros135]

3 hours ago, dcloudy777 said:

So should bagged handguns have flags as well?

Why would they need flags?  Are they rifles?  Is there a rule in the book about flagging handguns?

Merrily we troll along...

[Rangerdug]

Huh? What degree of safety is given up? The bolt is held to the rear, and the presence of a flag shows the chamber is empty. The flag makes the rifle more inert than a holster does to a handgun. Most of the rifle sports I'm aware of require chamber flags.

Putting your rifle in a bag without a flag doesn't magically contain a ND, it just makes everyone "feel" better because they can't see the muzzle sweeping them.

Retrieving the bag from the start position at the end of a course of fire slows down the squad. If you have a squad with 9 PCC shooters and they each take an additional 20 seconds retrieve their bag, that adds 3 minutes to that squad's time at each stage. Over a 15 stage sectional, that adds up to 45 minutes of delay and now you're backing up all the squads behind them.

A chamber flag can be carried in a pocket, it renders the firearm inert and it is easily visible to everyone on the stage. Once the rifle is flagged, the competitor should be free to go bag it without RO supervision. Carry it muzzle up until it's in a bag, don't sweep anyone going into the bag.

Sweeping fellow shooters, even with a flagged rifle is bad practice, and we should have a rule to cover this. I do think we want to allow bagging to occur away from RO supervision for the reasons I noted above. A lack of RO supervision makes a DQ difficult to enforce fairly.

If we require muzzle up carry, most rifles will be held by their forend. This encourages much better muzzle discipline than holding the rifle by the grip with the rifle pointing generally down.

If we allow bagging/unbagging away from the course of fire, do we want to designate a specific point in the bay where this is to occur? Would this make it easier to monitor? It seems that requiring muzzles to point into the side berm while bagging is a reasonable restriction.

PCC 5.2.1.5 Match organizers may specify that carbines are allowed to be cased or uncased with the muzzle in a safe direction, i.e., into the side berm or backstop. This can be designated as a “staging area” for carbines. No handgun handling is allowed in this area. When casing/uncasing PCC’s, the muzzle must point at a side berm or backstop. Failure to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing/uncasing will result in a DQ per PCC 10.5.2.1
Issue solved!!!


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[bret]

1 minute ago, Rangerdug said:

 

PCC 5.2.1.5 Match organizers may specify that carbines are allowed to be cased or uncased with the muzzle in a safe direction, i.e., into the side berm or backstop. This can be designated as a “staging area” for carbines. No handgun handling is allowed in this area. When casing/uncasing PCC’s, the muzzle must point at a side berm or backstop. Failure to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing/uncasing will result in a DQ per PCC 10.5.2.1
Issue solved!!!


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since you can only handle your gun at the safe area or under the direction supervision and command of a Range Officer, I think PCC should be handled the same way.

case and uncase them at the line, unbagging them anywhere else except the safe area or under the command of an R.O. should be treated like handling a handgun.

The on deck shooter knows they are up, they should be at or near the start position with their bagged PCC, ready to be given the Make Ready Command before the R.O.'s are finished scoring the previous shooter.

This would alleviate a lot of the issues with using a carbine in a pistol match.

[Rangerdug]

since you can only handle your gun at the safe area or under the direction supervision and command of a Range Officer, I think PCC should be handled the same way.

case and uncase them at the line, unbagging them anywhere else except the safe area or under the command of an R.O. should be treated like handling a handgun.

The on deck shooter knows they are up, they should be at or near the start position with their bagged PCC, ready to be given the Make Ready Command before the R.O.'s are finished scoring the previous shooter.

This would alleviate a lot of the issues with using a carbine in a pistol match.

I think you're missing point of the rule. You are allowed to pre-stage/post-stage your carbine, without taking up the attention of the overworked RO, and saving everyones time. We ran this at the last match and it was very smooth. It is not a "safe area", it by rule is a staging area. From this staging area you simply unbag move to the line; at that point, you take all commands from RO. When finished and flagged you move back and bag it. Easy Peazy.

I know that this will set some on edge, but let's be honest. Every match we have a hypocritical circus that occurs in the parking lot. We treat our cars like magical safe areas as we kit up. If you can trusted to holster your gun from the trunk of your car without an RO, is establishing an actual staging so foreign.


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[bret]

5 hours ago, Rangerdug said:

I think you're missing point of the rule. You are allowed to pre-stage/post-stage your carbine, without taking up the attention of the overworked RO, and saving everyones time. We ran this at the last match and it was very smooth. It is not a "safe area", it by rule is a staging area. From this staging area you simply unbag move to the line; at that point, you take all commands from RO. When finished and flagged you move back and bag it. Easy Peazy.

I know that this will set some on edge, but let's be honest. Every match we have a hypocritical circus that occurs in the parking lot. We treat our cars like magical safe areas as we kit up. If you can trusted to holster your gun from the trunk of your car without an RO, is establishing an actual staging so foreign.


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The point is to eliminate the sloppy gun handling of guns by treating all guns the same at handgun matches.

The matches I shoot at if you handle your gun anywhere other than at the safe area and someone sees you, you get DQ'd for unsafe gun handling, this can happen after the match is over since the match isn't over for 1 hour after last shots.

USPSA does not allow gunning up in your car or the parking lot.

Where do you see people gunning up in the trunk of their car?

Edited November 29, 2016 by bret

[Thomas H]

19 hours ago, PatJones said:

Retrieving the bag from the start position at the end of a course of fire slows down the squad. If you have a squad with 9 PCC shooters and they each take an additional 20 seconds retrieve their bag, that adds 3 minutes to that squad's time at each stage. Over a 15 stage sectional, that adds up to 45 minutes of delay and now you're backing up all the squads behind them.

Is it that difficult to have someone bring the bag to the end of the course, thus not wasting any time?  Answer:  no.  We haven't had a single issue with making sure someone has the bag to hand to the shooter at the end of the stage, and no, it isn't the RO's problem or issue to deal with or set up. 

For our particular case, we have specifically NOT designated any sort of "staging area" for uncasing PCCs, and as such competitors have to unbag and bag on the line.  It hasn't been any sort of problem at all....even in cases when all the PCC shooters in the match put themselves on the same squad.

There are other potential solutions that can be discussed (rather ad nauseum, it seems) but....the way we do it, gun-handling for PCCs is the same as gun-handling for every other gun in the match, we haven't had any sweeping issues, and it hasn't taken any longer than it does for any other gun.

Truthfully, I'm not sure if anyone has any actual data showing the NEED for doing it any other way.

 

 

[Patrick Scott]

I drag my DAA cart, gun attached as close to the line as possible, un-cart at "Make Ready", after shooting I either walk the flagged gun back to the cart or one of my buddies bring the cart to me at the end. It goes smooth and it takes no more time to get me through a stage than some folks who have long MR routines(Im not knocking them), or shoot Revo   j/k