Slugging a 929

[VanMan1961]

I had read a few threads claiming that the 929 was produced with the same tools as 38/357 revolvers, so I decided to slug my 929.

\

\

All throats were consistent at .357 and the barrel was .356.  Guess I better switch from the 9mm 147gr projectiles I've been using for reloads.

Edited September 21, 2016 by VanMan1961
adding pics

[Bamboo]

Going old school with the verniers!  Good for you! 

FWIW - My 627 has the same dims - and shoots .358 coated bullets very well. 

[VanMan1961]

46 minutes ago, Bamboo said:

Going old school with the verniers!  Good for you! 

FWIW - My 627 has the same dims - and shoots .358 coated bullets very well. 

I've had that vernier for over 30 years, and it's still very accurate.  Sadly, I need reading glasses to use it now, but I'm too stubborn to buy a dial caliper

I'm definitely going to try some Berry's .38 158gr Round Nose.  Can't find a supplier for .358 coated bullets out here in Western Canada.

 

[ffl]

I have several verniers in my my shop.  I still use them.  Very rugged.  However my Starrett #120 Dial calipers have only been to the shop once in 36 years.  they are still calibrated every quarter.  I have developed several habits.  1. Don't let anyone else use them. 2. Always put back in case every time you set them down and close the lid each time.

 

Edited September 21, 2016 by ffl

[EEH]

14 hours ago, VanMan1961 said:

I had read a few threads claiming that the 929 was produced with the same tools as 38/357 revolvers, so I decided to slug my 929.

\

\

All throats were consistent at .357 and the barrel was .356.  Guess I better switch from the 9mm 147gr projectiles I've been using for reloads.

It's almost forgot how to even read those things!

[EEH]

But Kentucky gun company has the 929 for $899.99 

I want one so bad but so many bad reviews .

[MWP]

2 minutes ago, EEH said:

But Kentucky gun company has the 929 for $899.99 

I want one so bad but so many bad reviews .

I have 4 in current use, they're fine. So are the pair my shooting partner has.

Edited September 21, 2016 by MWP

[VanMan1961]

35 minutes ago, EEH said:

But Kentucky gun company has the 929 for $899.99 

I want one so bad but so many bad reviews .

Once a few bugs have been worked out my 929 has been just as rock solid as my 625's & 610.  If you want a slick trigger, all S&W & Ruger revolvers will need tuned springs and polished trigger parts.  The cylinder throat & bore problem is the only think specific to the 929, and now that I know what the sizes are, it should be easy to adjust my reloads to get great accuracy.

I just bought a 2nd 929 that had a few bugs fresh from the factory (barrel slightly off index, star ejector doesn't allow a fully loaded moon clip to be loaded).  The good news is that we have a really good S&W warranty center fairly close who arranged over-night Fed-ex service at their cost and will address these bugs right away. 

[IHAVEGAS]

16 hours ago, VanMan1961 said:

All throats were consistent at .357 and the barrel was .356.  Guess I better switch from the 9mm 147gr projectiles I've been using for reloads.

 

Have you verified that the 147's you are using (I am assuming .356) do not group well?

The more I read about 929's the more confused I get. Some seem to be getting good accuracy with 9mm bullets. 

[VanMan1961]

33 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

Have you verified that the 147's you are using (I am assuming .356) do not group well?

The more I read about 929's the more confused I get. Some seem to be getting good accuracy with 9mm bullets. 

The Campro 147gr projectiles I'm using are advertised as .355".  My accuracy with them is ~3" at 10 yards (about the same as my semi-auto).  Occasionally I'll get a flier that will put the group out at 6"-8" (maybe 1 every 3rd or 4th moon clip).  With most of my target .22's, I can usually group ~1/2" at 10 yards. 

I'm going to get some .357 158gr projectiles and see what accuracy I can get out of those.  I'm expecting with better sealing in the cylinder throat and barrel, I can more efficiently use the powder charge to get a higher fps.

 

[seanc]

46 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

Have you verified that the 147's you are using (I am assuming .356) do not group well?

The more I read about 929's the more confused I get. Some seem to be getting good accuracy with 9mm bullets. 

"Some seem to be"

Internet accuracy claims and all that.  

The only person I know that actually does it with the gun locked down to remove the shooter is Ty.

Anyone else putting that much effort in is not saying or sharing either way.

One thing that does remain, if you want a factory gun to have any hope of shooting a decent group, you need to recrown.

 

[seanc]

2 minutes ago, VanMan1961 said:

I'm going to get some .357 158gr projectiles and see what accuracy I can get out of those.  I'm expecting with better sealing in the cylinder throat and barrel, I can more efficiently use the powder charge to get a higher fps.

 

Anecdotally my gun shoots 358 coated lead bullets the best.  It is not readily obvious that getting more fps = more accuracy with heavier bullets either.   My gun shoots .358 160g bullets better at 770 fps than at 800-810 fps.  I would expect hardly any difference in groups with a 30-40 fps spread  but its what I saw.

I wish someone would just do all this for me and tell me the answer, there are so many variables....

All things being equal though, I would expect that a load that prints good out of a 9mm auto should be pretty darn good out of these and that doesn't seem to hold.  None of my production loads came close to making pf in the revolver....

 

[ffl]

Louis's 9mm load is starline brass, Zero 115gr Conical JHP, Titegroup, Fed primer.  at 40 yds from a ransom rest you can cover them with a quarter.  Speed aprox. 1150 or so. Std Deviation is under 5 if I remember.

This is out of a 1911 comp gun. 

Lesson. Heaver bullets aren't necessarily more accurate

 

[VanMan1961]

2 hours ago, ffl said:

Louis's 9mm load is starline brass, Zero 115gr Conical JHP, Titegroup, Fed primer.  at 40 yds from a ransom rest you can cover them with a quarter.  Speed aprox. 1150 or so. Std Deviation is under 5 if I remember.

This is out of a 1911 comp gun. 

Lesson. Heaver bullets aren't necessarily more accurate

 

Fully agree   The weight of the projectile (for me at least) has more to do with perceived recoil when I'm trying to make power factor for IPSC, USPSA, .....

There's a fellow up here in Canada that's done a lot of testing and found that each of his hand guns is most accurate with a specific reload (projectile & charge weight). 

[revoman]

4 hours ago, VanMan1961 said:

The Campro 147gr projectiles I'm using are advertised as .355".  My accuracy with them is ~3" at 10 yards (about the same as my semi-auto).  Occasionally I'll get a flier that will put the group out at 6"-8" (maybe 1 every 3rd or 4th moon clip).  With most of my target .22's, I can usually group ~1/2" at 10 yards. 

I'm going to get some .357 158gr projectiles and see what accuracy I can get out of those.  I'm expecting with better sealing in the cylinder throat and barrel, I can more efficiently use the powder charge to get a higher fps.

 

Attached picture is 3 rounds at 10 yds of 38 short colt, 160 grain Hi-tech coated 2 Alpha Bullet sized at .358, VV N320 3.5 grains seated at 1.185. Revolver is a 627 with a 38 super custom barrel .356 with extended forcing cone as I had the cylinder cut back to 38 short colt length. The cylinder no longer has any throats. 3" at 10 yds is not acceptable for ICORE standards or for any of my revolvers or autos.

Edited September 22, 2016 by revoman
Add power factor of 130

[VanMan1961]

1 hour ago, revoman said:

Attached picture is 3 rounds at 10 yds of 38 short colt, 160 grain Hi-tech coated 2 Alpha Bullet sized at .358, VV N320 3.5 grains seated at 1.185. Revolver is a 627 with a 38 super custom barrel .356 with extended forcing cone as I had the cylinder cut back to 38 short colt length. The cylinder no longer has any throats. 3" at 10 yds is not acceptable for ICORE standards or for any of my revolvers or autos.

Very nice group and a sweet customized 627!  If you can do this repeatedly free hand you sir are a god

[revoman]

7 hours ago, VanMan1961 said:

Very nice group and a sweet customized 627!  If you can do this repeatedly free hand you sir are a god

Not free hand but benched with bags. If I could shoot like that free hand I probably wouldn't be typing on this forum but shooting professionaly or shooting trick shots on a circuit. ?

[ffl]

Does that gun always shoot in mirror groups??

 

[Alaskan454]

I'll chime in.  I don't have an anvil micrometer so I have no proper measurement for the barrel, but a slug that went through the rifling will slide in and out of each throat with very little wiggle room.  A .3555" projectile has more wiggle room than the barrel slug and a .357 projectile will not pass through any of the throats at all.  I think it's safe to say these are smaller than 38/357 spec and appear to be around .356.  The groove being about the same as the throats had me a little nervous but so far I am seeing no glaring issues.

I've only shot 200 rounds through it so far and they were all .3555" Blue Bullets that weigh 149-150 gr.  My first load was 3.1 gr of TiteGroup and I could get a few holes touching at 15 yards during sight in off hand.  When I first shot the gun I only wanted to know how much mainspring tension I needed to set of the primers so I was dumping rounds as fast as I could pull the trigger on an ICORE target at 10 yards.  60 rounds mostly inside the A zone and nothing on paper has shown signs of key holing.  I'd call that acceptable so far, I was practically point shooting.  This morning I chronoed the load and it came back at 133 PF, which was surprising based upon some of the low velocities that are being reported through these guns.  I did have one sticky extraction but it was 90 degrees and I had put 100 rounds through the gun in a pretty short time frame, I've had the same happen in my 625 on occasion.  There is no fouling to speak of in the barrel or cylinder, and aside from the one sticky moonclip everything has worked pretty well.  I just need to deepen the chamfer job on the cylinder and dial in the final pull weight.

[seanc]

21 hours ago, ffl said:

Louis's 9mm load is starline brass, Zero 115gr Conical JHP, Titegroup, Fed primer.  at 40 yds from a ransom rest you can cover them with a quarter.  Speed aprox. 1150 or so. Std Deviation is under 5 if I remember.

This is out of a 1911 comp gun. 

Lesson. Heaver bullets aren't necessarily more accurate

 

100% agreed.   Like you are doing, all one needs to do is look at what the field is shooting at Bianchi and find all the bullets are on the low side to see this in full effect right?   That is what I seem to have found anyways, i'm sure there are guys shooting heavies but by and large stuff is on the light side, below 135...

I have loaded up a bunch of hornady 115 JHP loads based on data I found on Bob Marvels website for 9mm bullseye guns.   I have not shot them just yet, no time, but I have high expectations...

I have been pondering this for awhile,  having a revolver that shoots these lighter bullets better, but what does the load look like and what does the barrel look like, to have it recoil like it does with the heavier bullet.   I have done testing with 115 and 124's for ICORE and the gun is way more violent/jumpy than it is with 160's, but that is just initial pass at it.  

To flatten the gun out it will need enough holes in the barrel and enough powder to make them work.

[seanc]

1 hour ago, Alaskan454 said:

I've only shot 200 rounds through it so far and they were all .3555" Blue Bullets that weigh 149-150 gr.  My first load was 3.1 gr of TiteGroup and I could get a few holes touching at 15 yards during sight in off hand.  When I first shot the gun I only wanted to know how much mainspring tension I needed to set of the primers so I was dumping rounds as fast as I could pull the trigger on an ICORE target at 10 yards.  60 rounds mostly inside the A zone and nothing on paper has shown signs of key holing.  I'd call that acceptable so far, I was practically point shooting.  This morning I chronoed the load and it came back at 133 PF, which was surprising based upon some of the low velocities that are being reported through these guns.  I did have one sticky extraction but it was 90 degrees and I had put 100 rounds through the gun in a pretty short time frame, I've had the same happen in my 625 on occasion.  There is no fouling to speak of in the barrel or cylinder, and aside from the one sticky moonclip everything has worked pretty well.  I just need to deepen the chamfer job on the cylinder and dial in the final pull weight.

You sold me, I ordered a box of these bullets to test.

You are describing a defacto production(3.2-3 of tg with a 147 bullet) load that comes in at the same PF as it does in auto's out of a 929 which so far as I know nobody has seen.

[Alaskan454]

That's why I started at 3.1 gr, I didn't expect to get that velocity out of the revolver and was only shooting for 125 PF.  I also seated them out to 1.125" which is a touch longer than some do.  I might be able to comfortably hit PF with 2.7-2.8gr for ICORE.  The Blue Bullets I've tried in 9 and 45 have been great, I have some 38s that I still need to test but don't expect any surprises. 

[VanMan1961]

1 hour ago, seanc said:

You sold me, I ordered a box of these bullets to test.

You are describing a defacto production(3.2-3 of tg with a 147 bullet) load that comes in at the same PF as it does in auto's out of a 929 which so far as I know nobody has seen.

Thanks for sharing guys, all really good information here.  I'm going to have to see if there's a distributor up here in Canada I can get some of those .3555 Blue Bullets. 

[Alaskan454]

Just to follow up I tested 2.7 gr of TiteGroup with the 149-150gr bullets at 1.125".  It chronoed with an average of 839 fps and a SD of 9 fps.  I think I will bump it up to 2.8 gr just to be safe traveling to the IRC.  I forgot to Loctite the sight body screws so I went back to the range this morning to confirm zero after doing so.  First clip on paper at ten yards resulted in five touching and three flyers, that's about as good as I can shoot cold with any gun.  

Then I parked a 12" plate at 50 yards to see how it grouped at distance and check for bullet drop on longer targets.  I was over correcting and the first three went over the top, next two walked into the plate, last three are about 3" from edge to edge at the bottom right.  I ran out of ammo so it was time to go home, I would have shot more but I needed to save my ammo for a match this Saturday. I was stupid and forgot to order more bullets last week so I am fresh out.

 

 

 

[VanMan1961]

I got a chance to run some test loads using Berrys 158gr 38 (.357) RN and 148gr 38 (.357) HBWC. 

The hollow based wad cutters are just for fun to see if they will give me some good groups.  I still have some rounds left from each test batch, so I'm going to mount a red dot on my other 929 and see what kind of groups each load will give me.  Fun fun fun

For reference, I shot some factory loads and a 9mm load I worked up specifically for my 929.  You can see that the 929 is significantly slower with a 9mm .355 bullet.

 

Edited October 4, 2016 by VanMan1961