Begin outside shooting area

[Steve Koski]

At a recent match, we were told to start outside the shooting area.

Can one:

• Not touch the shooting area border at all
• Touch the ground outside the shooting area and touching the border (ie. a toe up on the border), so long as they are not contacting the ground inside the shooting area (minor edit for clarity)
• Stand on top of the border, not contacting the ground on either side

Thanks,

Koski

Edited August 22, 2016 by Steve Koski

[Sarge]

Yes

yes

no

[ktm300]

IMHO,

If the stage description just says "outside the shooting area" as long as you have a foot outside the shooting area you are OK as you have established yourself outside the shooting area.  If you fire a shot before you establish yourself inside the shooting area you get a procedural using 10.2.1.  That is why normally you see, something like outside the shooting area toes or heels touching marks.

Gamers gonna game so start positions have to be written well.

 

Fault Line .........................A physical ground reference line in a course of fire which defines the limit(s) of the shooting area.

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence. However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any target(s) while faulting, the competitor may instead be assessed one procedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots while faulting, providing doing so does not violate (2.2.1.5 or 3.2.6) Shots fired after completely (both feet out and touching the ground) leaving a shooting area will be penalized one penalty per shot until the competitor establishes a presence in a new shooting area with at least one foot on the ground inside the shooting area.

[bret]

You can have one foot in the shooting area completely,  stand on the fault line with part of your foot touching outside the shooting area, once the buzzer goes off,  lift your foot so it is no longer touching outside the shooting area. 

If they want you completely or wholly outside of the shooting area, they need to add completely or wholly to the location of the start position. 

[rowdyb]

would you be given a penalty for shooting from that "start" position for being out of the shooting area? if so, then it's a start position out of the shooting area.... simple litmus test.

[Steve Koski]

Thanks folks. That makes sense. 

[bret]

There was an article in a recent FrontSight magazine on this.

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, rowdyb said:

would you be given a penalty for shooting from that "start" position for being out of the shooting area? if so, then it's a start position out of the shooting area.... simple litmus test.

You would be given a penalty for faulting, which is totally different from being outside the shooting area..... but we have already discussed this at length, and based on Troy's ruling we have all agreed to be wrong together, which suits me just fine.

[rowdyb]

my head hurts, i should stay out of the rules forums. thank you.

[Sarge]

22 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

my head hurts, i should stay out of the rules forums. thank you.

Yep. It's not for the faint of heart. I still think the system is seriously flawed when ONE PERSON can make major rules decisions

[Gary Stevens]

Another apparent example of a poorly worded WSB.

[Nik Habicht]

2 hours ago, Gary Stevens said:

Another apparent example of a poorly worded WSB.

This.  There shouldn't be any penalties, because as long as you're not complying you should never proceed to "Are you Ready."  Commands might very well be:  "Make Ready" followed by brief discussion about start positions, followed by "Unload and Show Clear," "Call the RM, Next shooter to the line....."

Translation -- I wouldn't start you if it was my stage to run.  Then again -- probably would have fixed up the WSB before the first shooter heard "Make Ready" so that the description of the start position was crystal clear.....

 

[bret]

Nik,

It complys with the rules and the WSB, for outside the shooting area.

The range commands do not include a brief discussion about your opinion of proper start positions. 

If I was the shooter and an R.O. refused to start me when I am in compliance,  I would ask for another R.O.

 

[Nik Habicht]

Bret -- you missed my point.  You would either be non-compliant -- because I'd nail down the wording in collaboration with the RM beforehand, and wouldn't start you if you didn't meet the criteria, or it would be crystal clear that we didn't give 2 hoots about a standardized start position.

That wording -- standing outside free fire zone is just vague enough to give people fits, and cause arguments.  That's something best avoided, in my opinion......

 

One of my favorite start postions to use in a WSB is simply: Body position of shooter's choice, located anywhere in the freefire zone, facing any target.  

Everyone gets to game it to their advantage -- if they want to put it in the effort.  If I want you to start outside the FFZ, I'll generally be very specific, and you won't have the option of starting one foot in and one foot out.

 

BTW -- the rule that was cited is used for shooting while faulting lines; that appears to be a very different thing from starting, so, again in my opinion, it doesn't carry a great deal of weight when arguing about start positions....

 

 

[motosapiens]

11 hours ago, Nik Habicht said:

BTW -- the rule that was cited is used for shooting while faulting lines; that appears to be a very different thing from starting, so, again in my opinion, it doesn't carry a great deal of weight when arguing about start positions....

 

 

I agree with you here, but troy's ruling on the matter is pretty definitive. If all the wsb says is 'outside the shooting area', then we have agreed to pretend that 1 foot in and 1 foot out is in compliance. This was consistently and fairly enforced at A3, and everyone was happy.

 

fwiw, I don't know why stage designers and RO's give such a f*** about stuff like that. I was unable to discern any actual time advantage to starting 1 foot in and 1 foot out, and I saw at least 1 shooter game it so hard he forgot to lift up the outside foot before he started shooting. doh!

 

IMHO, RO's have more important stuff to worry about than ticky-tack details of start positions, like making sure the timer actually registers the last shot when someone is shooting through a solid-walled port.

[ktm300]

9 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 but troy's ruling on the matter is pretty definitive.

I don't see a ruling on the USPSA site.  What was the ruling, or what issue of Front Sight was it in?

I agree that it makes little difference in most cases.  It just too simple to put in a good start position in the WSB and stop the BS.

[bret]

3 minutes ago, ktm300 said:

I don't see a ruling on the USPSA site.  What was the ruling, or what issue of Front Sight was it in?

I agree that it makes little difference in most cases.  It just too simple to put in a good start position in the WSB and stop the BS.

It was in the Front Sight magazine that came out a month or two ago.

The MD may intentionally put start anywhere outside the shooting area to give the shooter the most flexibility.

Let the shooter decide how they want to shoot the stage, if they screw up and don't get in the shooting area, they get a procedural for it.

 

[Nik Habicht]

10 hours ago, bret said:

It was in the Front Sight magazine that came out a month or two ago.

The MD may intentionally put start anywhere outside the shooting area to give the shooter the most flexibility.

Let the shooter decide how they want to shoot the stage, if they screw up and don't get in the shooting area, they get a procedural for it.

 

The MD can do whatever he wants -- but the RM has the ability to order changes to the construction of the stages, and to the wording of the WSB.  That's critically important -- since the ROs, CROs, and RM should have already decided how to call any potential violations that could reasonably be expected to occur.  So if the start position description the MD provides is open to interpretation, the wise CRO or RM will tighten up the wording to either allow for shooter selection of a number of conditions, or to remove most or all options for the competitor.  

ETA: See rule 3.2.1