BallisticExpansion Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 I recently started shooting a STI edge for limited. After getting comfortable and faster with it I noticed that whenever I really get on the trigger the hammer will start to catch at half cock. Typically in bill drills or at targets 7yd and in. Happens both at matches and practice. It only happens when I start shooting .14-.15 splits. Well I knew I planned to get a trigger job done on it so I waited. Well its back from the smith. All new fire control internals (litespeed 2) except the trigger bow/shoe (its the sti gunsmith blank) and I even had him put new EGW pins in. The trigger break is awesome, but it STILL is catching at half cock in the above conditions. It seems to happen only when I hold the trigger in a certain "zone". Maybe it is something I am doing with how I am running the trigger? My only guess is either the pretravel or overtravel is somehow affecting it, or something with the reset even though the "zone" where it happens is past the reset. I have scoured the forums trying to find someone that had the same issue, but to no avail. Any ideas on solutions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aircooled6racer Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Hello: Backoff the overtravel screw about 1 turn and try it again. Also check to see if the grip screws are tight. You should have about 1/16" pre travel as well. If all that is good you may have to adjust the sear spring. Hope this helps. Thanks, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike4045 Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 I have had to switch to finger off trigger completely between shots. Solved the problem. After a couple trips to the gunsmith it still did it. Changed my technique slightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BallisticExpansion Posted July 9, 2016 Author Share Posted July 9, 2016 Hello: Backoff the overtravel screw about 1 turn and try it again. Also check to see if the grip screws are tight. You should have about 1/16" pre travel as well. If all that is good you may have to adjust the sear spring. Hope this helps. Thanks, Eric 1 turn as in 360 deg?! Thats a lot of overtravel. Grips screws are tight. I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BallisticExpansion Posted July 9, 2016 Author Share Posted July 9, 2016 I have had to switch to finger off trigger completely between shots. Solved the problem. After a couple trips to the gunsmith it still did it. Changed my technique slightly. Yeah but at what cost to your shooting ability? I feel my accuracy would suffer if I chose that method. Do you still shoot like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BallisticExpansion Posted July 9, 2016 Author Share Posted July 9, 2016 Hello: Backoff the overtravel screw about 1 turn and try it again. Also check to see if the grip screws are tight. You should have about 1/16" pre travel as well. If all that is good you may have to adjust the sear spring. Hope this helps. Thanks, Eric 1 turn as in 360 deg?! Thats a lot of overtravel. Grips screws are tight. I I backed off on the overtravel screw a good bit and still no go. Pretravel is roughly .05. It may be something with the sear spring. I suppose the center leg would be a good place to start. Thanks for the tips. Anyone else out there have any solutions please?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louu Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 I had this problem a few times too on my 1911, I think my thumb was dragging on the slide when it happened. Do you know if that is what your doing? I really have no idea if that's what causes it. Also check for hammer follow. I never figured out what was causing it on my 1911 I just switched guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dons Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Follow the advice already given and back the overtravel out a full turn, then try it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BallisticExpansion Posted July 9, 2016 Author Share Posted July 9, 2016 Follow the advice already given and back the overtravel out a full turn, then try it. Read my last post. Tried it and didn't change anything. :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BallisticExpansion Posted July 9, 2016 Author Share Posted July 9, 2016 I had this problem a few times too on my 1911, I think my thumb was dragging on the slide when it happened. Do you know if that is what your doing? I really have no idea if that's what causes it. Also check for hammer follow. I never figured out what was causing it on my 1911 I just switched guns. No cause the hammer still shouldn't be able to fall until the slide is fully in battery. Also I can replicate it with the gun empty and my right hand only on the gun. It passes all function tests. If I hold the trigger completely to the rear it doesn't do it. At least someone else has had the same problem. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 2 things, TGO uses the trigger slap I believe, which is what you call the method of removing your finger from the trigger and slapping it. Doesn't seem to hurt him, but you have to be consistent and really focus on technique as you can easily start pulling shots. The other is are you sure you're pulling the trigger when it's going to half cock? I had a Para that did that and it took me a while to realize it was following to, not catching on, the half cock notch. Usually catching on the half cock notch starts messing with the crispness of the trigger pull and the only way to fix it is to dress the sear again. Either way if the process of backing out the over travel stop didn't help, return it to the gunsmith who did the trigger job. Unless you have experience on setting up triggers, you really don't want to mess with the sear spring. If you do I'd get a new spring and try setting it up. There's a proven procedure to do it correctly try googling it. If you can't find it PM me I can send you a copy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BallisticExpansion Posted July 10, 2016 Author Share Posted July 10, 2016 The other is are you sure you're pulling the trigger when it's going to half cock? I had a Para that did that and it took me a while to realize it was following to, not catching on, the half cock notch. Usually catching on the half cock notch starts messing with the crispness of the trigger pull and the only way to fix it is to dress the sear again. Either way if the process of backing out the over travel stop didn't help, return it to the gunsmith who did the trigger job. Unless you have experience on setting up triggers, you really don't want to mess with the sear spring. If you do I'd get a new spring and try setting it up. There's a proven procedure to do it correctly try googling it. If you can't find it PM me I can send you a copy. what do you mean pulling the trigger? What happens is I am riding the trigger while the slide is back and when the slide returns to battery the hammer either follows or stops on half cock. I believe I am holding the trigger right past the reset point. The majority of the time it goes to half cock. I have never had it follow all the way during live fire. Yeah I think I am going to talk to the smith about it on Monday. I only know how to reassemble the gun and have a basic knowledge of how the internal parts work individually. I understand what the sear spring does, but not much about adjusting them. Who did the write up on the sear spring article? Maybe I can at least compare it to the smiths and see if it is similar. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWard79 Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 If the sear spring does not have adequate tension to enable the sear to engage the hammer hooks, the fallback safety designed into a 1911 setup is the half-cock. On a light trigger sear spring tension equates to timing, and if the timing (tension) is slow (light) then the sear will not engage the hammer at the desired time (hammer hooks). This may not be the issue you are dealing with, but if the trigger is pulled to the rear during live fire the only components that are actively engaged are the sear, hammer and sear spring. The lighter trigger pull on a 19/2011 is attributed to the tension applied by the sear and main spring, and the crispness is the engagement of the moving parts. Sear springs are the cheapest component, and the most likely to require replacement, and I would recommend installing a new sear spring to determine whether this is the source of the problem. An unmolested (tuned) sear spring will be heavier, but will allow you to eliminate sear/hammer engagement as an issue. Brownells has an article authored by Jack Weigand that explains how to tune a sear spring which only requires a trigger gauge and vise (or a really solid grip). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BallisticExpansion Posted July 10, 2016 Author Share Posted July 10, 2016 If the sear spring does not have adequate tension to enable the sear to engage the hammer hooks, the fallback safety designed into a 1911 setup is the half-cock. On a light trigger sear spring tension equates to timing, and if the timing (tension) is slow (light) then the sear will not engage the hammer at the desired time (hammer hooks). This may not be the issue you are dealing with, but if the trigger is pulled to the rear during live fire the only components that are actively engaged are the sear, hammer and sear spring. The lighter trigger pull on a 19/2011 is attributed to the tension applied by the sear and main spring, and the crispness is the engagement of the moving parts. Sear springs are the cheapest component, and the most likely to require replacement, and I would recommend installing a new sear spring to determine whether this is the source of the problem. An unmolested (tuned) sear spring will be heavier, but will allow you to eliminate sear/hammer engagement as an issue. Brownells has an article authored by Jack Weigand that explains how to tune a sear spring which only requires a trigger gauge and vise (or a really solid grip). Hmm interesting. I will definitely check out that article. I should try a new sear spring even though the one that the smith put in is brand new? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) Yes I was kind of talking rhetorically on "Pulling the Trigger", but the way you described it earlier it sounded as if you were pulling the trigger and it fell to half cock vs having pulled the trigger and it followed to half cock. I know you pulled the trigger for the previous shot and my point was it is sometimes hard to tell immediately whether the hammer followed to half cock right after the previous shot or if it caught on the half cock after you pulled the trigger at that point. Hence my question of whether you were pulling the trigger. You might also look at the disconnector there is a 90 degree angle on the lower front corner that sometimes sticks out into the mag well. Magazines usually hit this on a reload if it is extending into the mag well. But it would be possible that a Mag is shifting and hitting it, combined with real minimum engagement of the hammer hooks and sear it could do what you're saying. It is not something the 'smith did as you stated it was doing it before. But it probably got worse after he did the trigger job, because he reduced the engagement of the hammer/sear. If it's followed much since I'd ask him to 1st find the problem and fix it, at your cost, and 2nd touch up the sear angles as the half cock engagement will degrade the stoning job. At any point you are flirting with the 2011 going full auto, that Para I had described did that on me in practice. Luckily only had 10 rounds in it at the time. I finally determined, this was in 1993, that the pins weren't bored square and it was going to be very hard to get a good trigger. Sold it and went to a Caspian Hi-cap. Edited July 10, 2016 by pskys2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BallisticExpansion Posted July 10, 2016 Author Share Posted July 10, 2016 Yes I was kind of talking rhetorically on "Pulling the Trigger", but the way you described it earlier it sounded as if you were pulling the trigger and it fell to half cock vs having pulled the trigger and it followed to half cock. I know you pulled the trigger for the previous shot and my point was it is sometimes hard to tell immediately whether the hammer followed to half cock right after the previous shot or if it caught on the half cock after you pulled the trigger at that point. Hence my question of whether you were pulling the trigger. You might also look at the disconnector there is a 90 degree angle on the lower front corner that sometimes sticks out into the mag well. Magazines usually hit this on a reload if it is extending into the mag well. But it would be possible that a Mag is shifting and hitting it, combined with real minimum engagement of the hammer hooks and sear it could do what you're saying. It is not something the 'smith did as you stated it was doing it before. But it probably got worse after he did the trigger job, because he reduced the engagement of the hammer/sear. If it's followed much since I'd ask him to 1st find the problem and fix it, at your cost, and 2nd touch up the sear angles as the half cock engagement will degrade the stoning job. At any point you are flirting with the 2011 going full auto, that Para I had described did that on me in practice. Luckily only had 10 rounds in it at the time. I finally determined, this was in 1993, that the pins weren't bored square and it was going to be very hard to get a good trigger. Sold it and went to a Caspian Hi-cap. That is difficult to tell, but I am fairly certain it happens right after the 1st shot is broke and I am letting the trigger forward to reset. Already ruled out magazine issues as the gun does it empty. It has never fully followed except when the gun is empty. In live fire it always goes to half cock, but still like you said it is flirting with FA and that is not a good situation. Well seeing as I had him replace the sear/disco and hammer pin with new ones, I may be looking at pin holes that are not square. Is that even fixable? Do you think that is something STI would cover under warranty? Or would I be stuck with a 4lb+ trigger no matter what? When it had the original parts in it, I did tweak the original sear spring so it was much heavier on both legs. IIRC it still was having the same problem, but not as often. Regardless I have a state match next month and one in Sept. so hopefully I can figure out something soon. Otherwise I will be shooting lim minor with a G34 or shooting production as a "U". 1911s are great... when you aren't fixing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) Doubt if it's a pin problem with STI, you never said what weight the pull was. I like a 2 /12 pound pull, any lighter and they get real touchy. Are you using a steel hammer, titanium seems to wear quicker and start following after a while. If your pull is down under 2 pounds everything has to be right, you don't want to ever drop the slide on an empty chamber and you will need to have it checked at least once a year by a good smith. What main spring weight are you using, most use 17 to 19 lbs on competition trigger jobs. You can go lower but may have ignition issues below 17. Ask your 'smith what he cut the hammer hooks to, should be .018, you shouldn't need any less for anything 2 pounds or higher. Being as you had this problem before the trigger job, I'd take a hard look at the disconnector, make sure no part of it is sticking into the mag well. It's common for some 'smiths to drop the slide on an empty chamber to check their trigger job. But each time you do that the hammer will bounce on the sear and it only takes a few times to start getting a funky feel to the trigger. At this point you don't have a usable gun, it is following just not igniting a round. It's only a matter of when, not if, it is going to happen. Edited July 10, 2016 by pskys2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aircooled6racer Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 Hello: sounds like you need more spring tension on the sear spring. You may be getting trigger bounce from not enough tension on the center finger. If you have a trigger pull gauge check to see what you have on the pressure of the pre travel. Around 1 pound is a good starting point. Thanks, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BallisticExpansion Posted July 10, 2016 Author Share Posted July 10, 2016 Doubt if it's a pin problem with STI, you never said what weight the pull was. I like a 2 /12 pound pull, any lighter and they get real touchy. Are you using a steel hammer, titanium seems to wear quicker and start following after a while. If your pull is down under 2 pounds everything has to be right, you don't want to ever drop the slide on an empty chamber and you will need to have it checked at least once a year by a good smith. What main spring weight are you using, most use 17 to 19 lbs on competition trigger jobs. You can go lower but may have ignition issues below 17. Ask your 'smith what he cut the hammer hooks to, should be .018, you shouldn't need any less for anything 2 pounds or higher. Being as you had this problem before the trigger job, I'd take a hard look at the disconnector, make sure no part of it is sticking into the mag well. It's common for some 'smiths to drop the slide on an empty chamber to check their trigger job. But each time you do that the hammer will bounce on the sear and it only takes a few times to start getting a funky feel to the trigger. At this point you don't have a usable gun, it is following just not igniting a round. It's only a matter of when, not if, it is going to happen. I hope it is not a pin problem. That would be the worst possible thing to fix/replace! I have been running a 17lb mainspring, even before he did the trigger work. I was told it is at 2 and a quarter which is fine for me since it is super crisp. I don't have a gauge to test it at home, but I would say that is accurate. Well its a brand new disco that the smith fit and mag in or mag out doesn't affect it from happening. Would it still cause an issue empty with no mag?? It is the same trigger bow so maybe something there?? I am using the Extreme Engineering Litespeed 2 hammer, sear, and disco. I have only shot 350rds through the gun since it came back from the smith a week ago. I shot a quick 100rd practice sesson, than another 100rd practice session the night before my match yesterday. That is when I discovered it was having the same issue. I went ahead and shot it at the match yesterday. Fortunately I didn't have any issues with it at the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BallisticExpansion Posted July 10, 2016 Author Share Posted July 10, 2016 Hello: sounds like you need more spring tension on the sear spring. You may be getting trigger bounce from not enough tension on the center finger. If you have a trigger pull gauge check to see what you have on the pressure of the pre travel. Around 1 pound is a good starting point. Thanks, Eric That did cross my mind before when I had all the stock parts in and I tried it then. It didn't seem to help with the stock parts, maybe it will for these. Suppose its worth a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 (edited) I would agree with eric. not enough pressure on the sear spring. this is usually what causes hammer follow (aka 'doubling') but in your case the half cock ledge is high enough to catch the hammer. the middle leg on the sear spring puts pressure on the disconector (and trigger bar). the left hand leg is what directly pressures the sear leg. after pulling the trigger that is what enables it to rotate back down and catch on the hammer hook. if it's not doing that fast enough it's possible it's missing the hammer hook and then catching the half cock. it could be the middle leaf too, but I'd try the left hand one (right hand one just goes grip safety and should have no bearing on this issue at all). google up some vids/instructions on how to re-tension the sear spring, then follow those instructions to add just a little more pressure to the left leg of the sear. then re-test and see if that cures it. if not, try a little more pressure and re-test again. Edited July 11, 2016 by BeerBaron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BallisticExpansion Posted July 11, 2016 Author Share Posted July 11, 2016 I would agree with eric. not enough pressure on the sear spring. this is usually what causes hammer follow (aka 'doubling') but in your case the half cock ledge is high enough to catch the hammer. the middle leg on the sear spring puts pressure on the disconector (and trigger bar). the left hand leg is what directly pressures the sear leg. after pulling the trigger that is what enables it to rotate back down and catch on the hammer hook. if it's not doing that fast enough it's possible it's missing the hammer hook and then catching the half cock. it could be the middle leaf too, but I'd try the left hand one (right hand one just goes grip safety and should have no bearing on this issue at all). google up some vids/instructions on how to re-tension the sear spring, then follow those instructions to add just a little more pressure to the left leg of the sear. then re-test and see if that cures it. if not, try a little more pressure and re-test again. So does that mean it's possible this gun will never have a sub 3lb trigger? I can deal with the pretravel being heavy, but I would really like to have a crisp light trigger break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boxer1 Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 If the Hammer and Sear are cut/shaped right and the sear spring is adjusted right light trigger weight with no hammer follow is possible. If you have been having it fall on half cock a lot then the sear probably needs replaced or at least cleaned back up. You may try a clark 4 finger spring to hold tension against the back of the trigger to help some times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BallisticExpansion Posted July 11, 2016 Author Share Posted July 11, 2016 If the Hammer and Sear are cut/shaped right and the sear spring is adjusted right light trigger weight with no hammer follow is possible. If you have been having it fall on half cock a lot then the sear probably needs replaced or at least cleaned back up. You may try a clark 4 finger spring to hold tension against the back of the trigger to help some times. I put more tension on both legs of the sear spring, it isn't happening as much but I can still get it to follow/halfcock with the gun empty. I took out all pre travel and overtravel as well. Then I took off the thumb safeties/beaver tail and still all that didn't stop it. At this point I'm thinking I will let the smith worry with it. The sear will have to be re dressed anyway as I have dropped it on an empty chamber several times testing it. It seems as if me riding the trigger with my finger is moving the sear before the slide is back in battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Recommend don't test it with dropping on an empty chamber. Will screw with the hammer/sear at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now