Issues when switching from plated to lead.

[B_RAD]

Ok I'm having some issues and need some help.

I switched from Berrys 147(.356) gr plated w/3.9 WSF @1.15".

To Acme LFN coated (.356) w/3.7 WSF @1.125"

Crimp on both is about .377"

I loaded about 200 rnds and had 30 that wouldn't plunk/case gauge.

Mostly PPU cases but had several with other foreign cases. (I'm using mixed brass).

When I put the calipers on these rounds they do not measure any longer OAL or crimp. I can't figure out why they won't case gauge?

Is there something I'm not doing when switching from plated to lead?

I had to adjust OAL due to the differences in profile of the bullets. Other than that I should be good to go. The crimp is coming out the same.

Something is up, I wasn't having any problems with mixed brass (at least not this problem) with Berrys.

Anyone got any ideas?

Thanks.

Edited June 17, 2016 by B_RAD

[Hi-Power Jack]

Unfortunately, every time you change bullets (even if they're the same weight)

it's a really good idea to Plunk Test them in your gun ...

The shape of the bullet can mean you need a shorter OAL ...

You might have to back the new bullets down to 1.13, or so.

Your crimp won't change from bullet to bullet - always stays the same.

[B_RAD]

Unfortunately, every time you change bullets (even if they're the same weight)

it's a really good idea to Plunk Test them in your gun ...

The shape of the bullet can mean you need a shorter OAL ...

You might have to back the new bullets down to 1.13, or so.

Your crimp won't change from bullet to bullet - always stays the same.

I did the plunk test. 1.125" works.

I think it's an issues with the foreign cases. PPU, Perfecta, etc.. and the base of the bullets being set deeper in the case.

[Dr Mitch]

The ogive is in a different location along the profile of the bullet. Look up ogive.

[noylj]

It's a really good idea to create a couple of inert dummy rounds and use them for COL determination before loading ANY rounds.

If you "painted" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker, did the plunk test in your barrel, and rotate the case back-and-forth a couple of times, the scratch through the marking would show where your problem is.

Take the barrel out of the gun. Drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop round in barrel (or gage) and rotate it back-and-forth a few times.

Remove and inspect the round:

1) Scratches in the ink on bullet--COL is too long

2) Scratches in the ink on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp

3) Scratches in the ink just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case

4) Scratches in the ink on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit

5) Scratches in the ink on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.

[B_RAD]

The ogive is in a different location along the profile of the bullet. Look up ogive.

I loaded 200 rnds using the same bullet. (Acme 147 gr). Had 30 + that would plunk test(using my barrel on every single one).

I understand the ogive is different between different thpes of bullets. I'm using the same bullet.

[B_RAD]

It's a really good idea to create a couple of inert dummy rounds and use them for COL determination before loading ANY rounds.

If you "painted" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker, did the plunk test in your barrel, and rotate the case back-and-forth a couple of times, the scratch through the marking would show where your problem is.

Take the barrel out of the gun. Drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop round in barrel (or gage) and rotate it back-and-forth a few times.

Remove and inspect the round:

1) Scratches in the ink on bullet--COL is too long

2) Scratches in the ink on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp

3) Scratches in the ink just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case

4) Scratches in the ink on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit

5) Scratches in the ink on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.

Gonna paint up some of the ones that failed and try this.

I looked a little more at them. To me it looks like the cases aren't uniform all the way around. I can feel the bottom of the bullet in some spots more than others. Rotating the bullet and running my finger up and down, I can feel the base of the bullet in some spots and can't in others when I rotate the cartridge.

[FightFireJay]

I'm wondering if the different bullet profile and deeper seating is making the heavy bullet run into the web of these cases. Certainly there is some variation on the web location of different brass manufacturers and if you're hitting on the PPU, then that could easily cause issues.

When loading lead (and plated) in semi-autos, I basically only use the crimp to remove the excess case flare and get the case mouth back to straight. I get plenty of neck tension from the brass without a crimp. If you aren't putting a hard crimp on the lead, then you don't have to line up the case mouth with the crimp groove, so you can load to the COAL that works for your gun.

[IDescribe]

BRad, as you move from the case mouth toward the case walls, most 9mm Luger case walls start to thicken at .300 from the case mouth. But some start to thicken earlier -- around .250. You might be seeing the problem with cases that do that, and as the bullet slides past the ~.250 mark, the case walls are starting to bow out. Figure out which brass cause the problem, and stop using them.

[B_RAD]

Thanks folks for the info.

I guess I'm gonna have to sort thru my brass now. That or go back to Berrys. Never had this problem using those. Makes sense now.

I'll probably go back to them. Between this and the slight puff of smoke, the $0.03 savings is t worth the extra trouble.

[Hi-Power Jack]

I may be wrong, but I doubt that your problem is the BRASS.

If your new bullet PLUNKS at 1.125", but 30% do NOT PLUNK at 1.13",

then I'd back off to 1.120" and try that ...

I believe what is happening is that you're CLOSE at 1.125", and 70%

PLUNK just fine - but some do not.

If you back off your OAL just a tad more, you shouldn't have a problem,

again -

BUT, I MAY be WRONG.

Good luck with it.

[B_RAD]

I may be wrong, but I doubt that your problem is the BRASS.

If your new bullet PLUNKS at 1.125", but 30% do NOT PLUNK at 1.13",

then I'd back off to 1.120" and try that ...

I believe what is happening is that you're CLOSE at 1.125", and 70%

PLUNK just fine - but some do not.

If you back off your OAL just a tad more, you shouldn't have a problem,

again -

BUT, I MAY be WRONG.

Good luck with it.

I may have not been clear. The ones failing are not failing because they're longer. They measure out to the same 1.125" (+\- .003"). I've personally verified that 1.130" will work but I shortened (set my searing die) to 1.125" to allow for any +.005 swing.

I'm convinced it's the case wall/bullet profile.

Now, I do wonder if seating to 1.115" will pass the problem area of these case walls and work better (i.e not bulge).

[B_RAD]

I'm wondering if the different bullet profile and deeper seating is making the heavy bullet run into the web of these cases. Certainly there is some variation on the web location of different brass manufacturers and if you're hitting on the PPU, then that could easily cause issues.

When loading lead (and plated) in semi-autos, I basically only use the crimp to remove the excess case flare and get the case mouth back to straight. I get plenty of neck tension from the brass without a crimp. If you aren't putting a hard crimp on the lead, then you don't have to line up the case mouth with the crimp groove, so you can load to the COAL that works for your gun.

These bullets do not have a crimp groove (cannelure). I'm fairly confident my crimp is not too much. When I pull these bullets, there is no visible line from the crimp and ive checked to see if I was getting any setback. I'm not.

[Miranda]

welcome to "everyone has an opinion"

with the crimp at .377

you have two places that will cause the round to fail the plunk test in your pistol chamber.

bullet into rifling or brass too fat somewhere.

I am reading this and am surprised your bullets are not falling out...

along with your comment about no crimp line, leads me to think

your calipers and mine are not in complete agreement.

A couple of thous is not a lot of difference.

If it makes you feel better, I think my favorite calipers measure about a half a thou big at .380.

It may be my way of measuring and the digital ones are that half thou smaller...

so the fit to your pistol is what you need to give the final say.

so ink up and drop it in.

your new bullets are likely to be the cause... somehow

I'd measure a few bullets at the base and then measure them after I pulled them.

the other thing I'd do is find out how long I can load them.

you might find the measurement useful should you decide to hunt the most accurate OAL.

you will find the solution.

miranda

[SNSCaster2]

Be sure to check the diameter of the bullet. Sizing dies can wear out and leave you with a bullet that is larger than .356"

[IDescribe]

BRad, you should try shortening them a little more to see if that helps, but if it helps, it's not that it's getting the base of the bullet beyond a certain point. IF that happens, it actually gets worse the deeper you go. If shortening it helps, then it was the OAL all along. Also, unless your process and gear are wired super tight, a .005 reduction from max isn't enough. You should look to .010 - .015.

[B_RAD]

BRad, you should try shortening them a little more to see if that helps, but if it helps, it's not that it's getting the base of the bullet beyond a certain point. IF that happens, it actually gets worse the deeper you go. If shortening it helps, then it was the OAL all along. Also, unless your process and gear are wired super tight, a .005 reduction from max isn't enough. You should look to .010 - .015.

I'm pretty sure it's not the OAL. Actually, I'm sure. I'm not having this problem with other rounds loaded exactly the same. It's the brand of cases that's giving me the problems. I have Win, FC, RP, Blazer, Speer loaded to the same OAL as the PPU, perfectas. Only the PPU/perfectas are giving me this problem.

I still may shorten the OAL to give myself a little more buffer. I've gotten 1.130" to pass the plunk and twist but I think I start having problems around the 1.133" mark.

[Flash74]

Try increasing your bell. Lead likes shave and make fat rounds. The rounds that fail the plunk test, where are they failing? That is your biggest clue to what is wrong.

[IDescribe]

No, do not try increasing your bell. Bad crimp adjustment might prevent you from case gauging, but not bad bell.

Brad, you certainly have a variation in OAL in excess of .005, and probably in excess of .010. I'm not saying that because of your problems. I'm saying that because that's the way it is with newer reloaders. The sturdiness of your bench, whether or not it's bolted to a wall, the consistency of force with which you pull -- all of those things will affect your cartridge. It's not normally enough to cause an issue, but if you're riding the ragged edge of max OAL, it might. And taking OAL measurements with coated bullets can be a little rough to begin with because the coating can bead a little at the nose and produce inconsistent lengths in the bullets themselves, so you can have you can have two bullets at 1.030 OAL, so apparently identical, but because of the different thicknesses in the coating at the nose, the shoulders can be several, thousandths apart. Cases themselves can compress and "spring back" during the loading stroke at different rates, depending on manufacturer, producing significantly different OAL.

Basically, backing off .005 from the max OAL is a good way to get the problems you're getting with failed plunks. Until you get that OAL back down to 1.115, you can't be sure if it's an OAL issue or an issue with the case bowing from deep seating.

[B_RAD]

No, do not try increasing your bell. Bad crimp adjustment might prevent you from case gauging, but not bad bell.

Brad, you certainly have a variation in OAL in excess of .005, and probably in excess of .010. I'm not saying that because of your problems. I'm saying that because that's the way it is with newer reloaders. The sturdiness of your bench, whether or not it's bolted to a wall, the consistency of force with which you pull -- all of those things will affect your cartridge. It's not normally enough to cause an issue, but if you're riding the ragged edge of max OAL, it might. And taking OAL measurements with coated bullets can be a little rough to begin with because the coating can bead a little at the nose and produce inconsistent lengths in the bullets themselves, so you can have you can have two bullets at 1.030 OAL, so apparently identical, but because of the different thicknesses in the coating at the nose, the shoulders can be several, thousandths apart. Cases themselves can compress and "spring back" during the loading stroke at different rates, depending on manufacturer, producing significantly different OAL.

Basically, backing off .005 from the max OAL is a good way to get the problems you're getting with failed plunks. Until you get that OAL back down to 1.115, you can't be sure if it's an OAL issue or an issue with the case bowing from deep seating.

Thanks for the info!

I see what you're saying. When measuring, they do seem to come out to the same OAL but I can see what you mean by the little bead of coating.

I will shorten them to about 1.115". That's actually where I started out with these coated lead rounds. I didn't load up many at the 1.115" mark but I know I did have some that wouldn't case gauge.

I still think it could be the case wall thickness. Like I said above, there seems to be inconsistency with the bulge (lack of a better world) caused by the base of the bullet when rotating the case. On one side of the round you can feel the base of the bullet but can't on the other side. To me, that's indicating thinner case walls on the sides where the base of the bullet is more prominent. Maybe due to being fired out of a Glock? Though, is case bulge a problem on 9mm glocks? PPU isn't known (to me at least) to be high pressure/velocity ammo.

[B_RAD]

A couple more things I just thought of.

1. Press is a new 650 with about 600 rnds loaded.

2. Bench is sturdy and screwed to the wall.

3. I don't have this problem when loading plated at the longer OAL.

4. Also never had this problem with my 550 which is not on a sturdy bench. (Loading plated)

So, at the moment I put the bench not being sturdy enough at the bottom of the list.

I think it's either the cases having different wall thickness (top of my list) or the coating process leaving balls on the top of the flat point and that's causing issues with the ogive.

[Miranda]

off the top of my head...

the FC 9mm cases are thin side where the bullet seats

when compared to RP

most case walls are in between those two headstamps

so if the PPU cases are giving you fit problems, don't use them.

I do not remember measuring a ppu case, I have not collected enough to consider giving them a trial.

Glock have the reputation of having a more open chamber.

did you mention the sizing die and I missed reading it?

[B_RAD]

I'm using all Dillion dies.

[Miranda]

mmmm....

yeah, ink the case and try it.

I use a sharpie. plunk a problem case into your gauge or chamber and try to turn it.

that should give you a clear mark on the problem.

if you see a mark near the end of the sizing, that will be the problem.

a lot of people will mention something called a "u" die for sizing.

I use a lee sizing die.

I recall some one mentioning using a 9mm makarov die and pushing the case through as his

fix for bulgy cases.

miranda

[superdude]

Do the plunk test with those that will not fit after you've marked them with a magic marker as noylj described. That will tell you exactly where the problem lies.

The method and results are described here: http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloading/reloading-tips-the-plunk-test/

Different brands of brass differ in where they start to thicken, and can cause excess bulging at the base of the bullet that will not fit in some barrels.