USPSA PCC Start Position

[uod]

Well --- My club (SC03) has 12 PCC shooters signed up for the match tomorrow. I'm running them all on one squad to have a chance to get everything straight in my head before we start dispersing this division throughout all 6 of our squads. I have a feeling I am in for a long day tomorrow.

[Thomas H]

It appears to me that the equivalent of "holstered, hands relaxed at sides" is "stock on belt, muzzle pointed downrange, both hands on carbine". .

Default/normal start position: Facing downrange, carbine held in both hands, stock on belt or shouldered, muzzle downrange. Fingers will be out of the trigger guard, and the safety must be applied if the carbine is loaded. This equates to either port arms or low ready. NO uprange starts while holding the carbine!

from pcc best practices on uspsa website

https://uspsa.org/document_library/rules/2016/PCC%20Best%20Practices.pdf

That description does NOT equate to port arms or low ready

^^ this.

I hate the use of the term "port arms" because most non-military people don't know what that means. AND in many people's cases, doing it correctly will get the gun REALLY close to the 180. (If not breaking it in the first movement after the start signal.)

And "low ready" means about 15 different things to different people.

I wish they'd simply said "default start position is stock on belt, both hands on gun, muzzle pointed downrange." Now I'm going to have to write that into every written stage briefing, because if I don't, people (and I'm one of them) will start with stock on shoulder, gun pointed at the first target downrange, eyes through the sights, and finger on safety switch.

[ChuckS]

Port Arms:

[Rangerdug]

This is not complicated.

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Rangerdug

[Southpaw]

Ok now I'm confused. The best practices document says the default/normal start position is either port arms or low ready, but all the new WSBs for the classifiers say the start position is "stock on belt, muzzle downrange" which is not port arms or low ready...

Stock on belt, muzzle downrange sounds awkward, I have to hold the carbine at waste level with some part of the stock touching my belt and does the barrel need to be parallel to the ground or can I have it at an angle? Could I do a modified high ready like the above pic as long as part of the stock touches my belt?

[NickBlasta]

It's the 3-gun definition of port arms, not the military one. In 3 gun port arms is considered to be stock at belt level, muzzle higher than the stock, so people will hold the stock at the belt in line with the shoulder with the muzzle ready to swing down at the target. Faster than military port arms.

[MarkCO]

Now you have done it Nick. The anti-3Gunner pistol shooters will revolt en masse now.

[Thomas H]

Port Arms:

This is not complicated.

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The best part of these pictures is that not only are they NOT what is described by port arms or low ready in the PCC commentary, but they aren't the port arms or low ready used commonly in 3-Gun/Multigun matches.

Wherein lies the problem.

These terms ('low ready" and "port arms") mean different things to different people. As such, they aren't workable unless they are specified in a glossary or something similar.

Personally (and I wrote this to Troy and my AD as an opinion/suggestion) I think PCC should have a specific, singular default start position, just like we have for handguns. That way, WSB can write whatever else they like, but if they don't, we don't have a whole range of things people might do.

My personal preference is "Standing upright, stock touching belt, both hands on gun, muzzle pointed downrange."

...as this is very similar to the default handgun position.

(I note that the pictures of "port arms" shown are nicely close to breaking the 180, and it is highly likely that people using it will break the 180 either getting into port arms in the first place, or moving from it after the start signal.)

[Rangerdug]

Port Arms:

This is not complicated.

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The best part of these pictures is that not only are they NOT what is described by port arms or low ready in the PCC commentary, but they aren't the port arms or low ready used commonly in 3-Gun/Multigun matches.

Wherein lies the problem.

These terms ('low ready" and "port arms") mean different things to different people. As such, they aren't workable unless they are specified in a glossary or something similar.

Personally (and I wrote this to Troy and my AD as an opinion/suggestion) I think PCC should have a specific, singular default start position, just like we have for handguns. That way, WSB can write whatever else they like, but if they don't, we don't have a whole range of things people might do.

My personal preference is "Standing upright, stock touching belt, both hands on gun, muzzle pointed downrange."

...as this is very similar to the default handgun position.

(I note that the pictures of "port arms" shown are nicely close to breaking the 180, and it is highly likely that people using it will break the 180 either getting into port arms in the first place, or moving from it after the start signal.)

Did your AD help you right that? The point is that everybody is overthinking this. It is not complicated.

Listening to all ignorance is simply getting old. We are almost to IDPA retardation when it comes to this.

You have tools talking about squading all PCC shooters, as if they are Lepers. So they can get their heads around it. ITS a gun just like the pistols we have been shooting. Point at Target shoot, don't break the 180, Done!!!

Then there is you talking about a "singular default position".

Do we get as stupid when comes to hands naturally at your side, or hands on head. Everybody does it their own way and the matches seem to run pretty smooth.

Applying KISS "Keep It Simple Stupid Principle" will get us along way. Or we can reinvent the wheel just because we like the pain.

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[Southpaw]

It's the 3-gun definition of port arms, not the military one. In 3 gun port arms is considered to be stock at belt level, muzzle higher than the stock, so people will hold the stock at the belt in line with the shoulder with the muzzle ready to swing down at the target. Faster than military port arms.

Oh, that looks dumb, should just be low ready...

[Rangerdug]

It's the 3-gun definition of port arms, not the military one. In 3 gun port arms is considered to be stock at belt level, muzzle higher than the stock, so people will hold the stock at the belt in line with the shoulder with the muzzle ready to swing down at the target. Faster than military port arms.

Oh, that looks dumb, should just be low ready...

Does 410 count as PCC?[emoji848]

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[teros135]

This thread is making a lot of friends for PCC, isn't it?

[MarkCO]

This thread is making a lot of friends for PCC, isn't it?

No. ?

[Sarge]

This thread is making a lot of friends for PCC, isn't it?

No. ?

Not at all. I bought a PCC just because I thought it would be fun. Now I doubt I'll even try it. As is typical HQ made some stuff up that has ten different ways of interpreting it. Who exactly did they get input from? I realize a lot of work went into rewriting the classifiers and I do appreciate it but damn if this potentially fun new division didn't get FUBAR right out the gate.

[Sarge]

It's the 3-gun definition of port arms, not the military one. In 3 gun port arms is considered to be stock at belt level, muzzle higher than the stock, so people will hold the stock at the belt in line with the shoulder with the muzzle ready to swing down at the target. Faster than military port arms.

Isn't 3 gun the game that has different rules for different clubs on different days of the month? I don't shoot 3 gun but do know they tend to take pride in operating without a bunch of pesky rules like us USPSA guys. But now I'm supposed to feel confident in doing something the way they do it. Just makes it seem even more obvious that PCC belongs in multi gun

[NickBlasta]

It's the 3-gun definition of port arms, not the military one. In 3 gun port arms is considered to be stock at belt level, muzzle higher than the stock, so people will hold the stock at the belt in line with the shoulder with the muzzle ready to swing down at the target. Faster than military port arms.

Isn't 3 gun the game that has different rules for different clubs on different days of the month? I don't shoot 3 gun but do know they tend to take pride in operating without a bunch of pesky rules like us USPSA guys. But now I'm supposed to feel confident in doing something the way they do it. Just makes it seem even more obvious that PCC belongs in multi gun

It's just a way of showcasing that 'port arms' in shooting games is very different from military port arms.

[Rangerdug]

It's the 3-gun definition of port arms, not the military one. In 3 gun port arms is considered to be stock at belt level, muzzle higher than the stock, so people will hold the stock at the belt in line with the shoulder with the muzzle ready to swing down at the target. Faster than military port arms.

Isn't 3 gun the game that has different rules for different clubs on different days of the month? I don't shoot 3 gun but do know they tend to take pride in operating without a bunch of pesky rules like us USPSA guys. But now I'm supposed to feel confident in doing something the way they do it. Just makes it seem even more obvious that PCC belongs in multi gun

Multigun!?! for some who has never shot 3gun and know absolutely nothing about it, thank you for expert opinion. Again if you want shoot your pistols, go shoot your pistols. If you have no interest in shooting PCCs, go shoot your pistol. Point is you have your reason for shooting USPSA, you obviously like it. There is a reason why you shoot the division you shoot. Again you probably like it.

However, all of the issues we are having with PCC are not coming from those that shoot it, but all those that are threatened by it. Why? Egos!?! It would appear so!

To those of us that are shooting PCC's want to shoot USPSA... It represents a fun challenge. if you don't like it, how bout you go shoot multigun. You might like it.

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Edited July 3, 2016 by Rangerdug

[Sarge]

It's the 3-gun definition of port arms, not the military one. In 3 gun port arms is considered to be stock at belt level, muzzle higher than the stock, so people will hold the stock at the belt in line with the shoulder with the muzzle ready to swing down at the target. Faster than military port arms.

Isn't 3 gun the game that has different rules for different clubs on different days of the month? I don't shoot 3 gun but do know they tend to take pride in operating without a bunch of pesky rules like us USPSA guys. But now I'm supposed to feel confident in doing something the way they do it. Just makes it seem even more obvious that PCC belongs in multi gun

Multigun!?! for some who has never shot 3gun and know absolutely nothing about it, thank you for expert opinion. Again if you want shoot your pistols, go shoot your pistols. If you have no interest in shooting PCCs, go shoot your pistol. Point is you have your reason for shooting USPSA, you obviously like it. There is a reason why you shoot the division you shoot. Again you probably like it.

However, all of the issues we are having with PCC are not coming from those that shoot it, but all those that are threatened by it. Why? Egos!?! It would appear so!

To those of us that are shooting PCC's want to shoot USPSA... It represents a fun challenge. if you don't like it, how bout you go shoot multigun. You might like it.

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Hmm. The post I made earlier explained that I bought a PCC just to shoot it. I have always been a supporter of PCC.

You did a good job reading the second post though.

[Rangerdug]

It's the 3-gun definition of port arms, not the military one. In 3 gun port arms is considered to be stock at belt level, muzzle higher than the stock, so people will hold the stock at the belt in line with the shoulder with the muzzle ready to swing down at the target. Faster than military port arms.

Isn't 3 gun the game that has different rules for different clubs on different days of the month? I don't shoot 3 gun but do know they tend to take pride in operating without a bunch of pesky rules like us USPSA guys. But now I'm supposed to feel confident in doing something the way they do it. Just makes it seem even more obvious that PCC belongs in multi gun

Multigun!?! for some who has never shot 3gun and know absolutely nothing about it, thank you for expert opinion. Again if you want shoot your pistols, go shoot your pistols. If you have no interest in shooting PCCs, go shoot your pistol. Point is you have your reason for shooting USPSA, you obviously like it. There is a reason why you shoot the division you shoot. Again you probably like it.

However, all of the issues we are having with PCC are not coming from those that shoot it, but all those that are threatened by it. Why? Egos!?! It would appear so!

To those of us that are shooting PCC's want to shoot USPSA... It represents a fun challenge. if you don't like it, how bout you go shoot multigun. You might like it.

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Hmm. The post I made earlier explained that I bought a PCC just to shoot it. I have always been a supporter of PCC.

You did a good job reading the second post though.

I did read your posts. What I found fault was your understanding of 3gun, and your statement on relationship between PCCs and multigun. I also took liberties in addressing other posts within this thread. Posts that either represent blatant ignorance or undeserved contempt. Obviously we are on the same team, but I have the right to challenge your assertions, as you or anyone can with mine. I appreciate clarity and even debate if I have misconstrued or disagree with your intended point.

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[Mark R]

As a Match Director for 1 gun, 2 gun, 3 gun, and USPSA, I think the best way to start PCC shooters is to have them hold the stock on their belts with gun pointed downrange, muzzle about eye level. Since pistols shooters draw and bring the gun up to eye level, the stock on belt most similarly mimics the draw bringing the rifle up to eye level. So my next USPSA match will be stock on belt...except for the classifier.

BTW...thanks to all who commented here...it brought up a lot of thought, and in some cases a lot of BS. But everyone has an opinion.

[Thomas H]

Did your AD help you right that?

No, I came up with that all by myself.

The point is that everybody is overthinking this. It is not complicated.

Listening to all ignorance is simply getting old. We are almost to IDPA retardation when it comes to this.

I'm curious if you even read what I wrote. It doesn't seem so.

You have tools talking about squading all PCC shooters, as if they are Lepers. So they can get their heads around it. ITS a gun just like the pistols we have been shooting. Point at Target shoot, don't break the 180, Done!!!

Then there is you talking about a "singular default position".

Do we get as stupid when comes to hands naturally at your side, or hands on head. Everybody does it their own way and the matches seem to run pretty smooth.

I take it you don't actually realize that there is a default start position for handgun, and everybody does not do it their own way?

I take it that you also didn't actually read what I wrote, when I said that like any other time, WSBs can specify other start positions, but having a singular one will solve the problems of people saying "port arms" or low ready which we already know people don't agree upon, or starting in random positions?

No?

Applying KISS "Keep It Simple Stupid Principle" will get us along way. Or we can reinvent the wheel just because we like the pain.

So....having a simple, single default start position for PCC exactly like we have a simple, single default start position for handgun is NOT applying the KISS principle, in your estimation?

What an interesting idea.

Reading this thread, if you remove all the posts by Rangerdug, there has been some good discussion and a minimum of namecalling.

As a Match Director for 1 gun, 2 gun, 3 gun, and USPSA, I think the best way to start PCC shooters is to have them hold the stock on their belts with gun pointed downrange, muzzle about eye level. Since pistols shooters draw and bring the gun up to eye level, the stock on belt most similarly mimics the draw bringing the rifle up to eye level. So my next USPSA match will be stock on belt...except for the classifier.

I personally would prefer that start position to have the rifle pointed downrange instead of upward---meaning it would be pointed into a berm, instead of over the berm. That's just a personal preference, so I'm good with whatever. But having the rifle start (right before people pull it up to their eyes while taking off the safety) pointed at a berm is something I like better.

[Sarge]

Did your AD help you right that?

No, I came up with that all by myself.

The point is that everybody is overthinking this. It is not complicated.

Listening to all ignorance is simply getting old. We are almost to IDPA retardation when it comes to this.

I'm curious if you even read what I wrote. It doesn't seem so.

You have tools talking about squading all PCC shooters, as if they are Lepers. So they can get their heads around it. ITS a gun just like the pistols we have been shooting. Point at Target shoot, don't break the 180, Done!!!

Then there is you talking about a "singular default position".

Do we get as stupid when comes to hands naturally at your side, or hands on head. Everybody does it their own way and the matches seem to run pretty smooth.

I take it you don't actually realize that there is a default start position for handgun, and everybody does not do it their own way?

I take it that you also didn't actually read what I wrote, when I said that like any other time, WSBs can specify other start positions, but having a singular one will solve the problems of people saying "port arms" or low ready which we already know people don't agree upon, or starting in random positions?

No?

Applying KISS "Keep It Simple Stupid Principle" will get us along way. Or we can reinvent the wheel just because we like the pain.

So....having a simple, single default start position for PCC exactly like we have a simple, single default start position for handgun is NOT applying the KISS principle, in your estimation?

What an interesting idea.

Reading this thread, if you remove all the posts by Rangerdug, there has been some good discussion and a minimum of namecalling.

As a Match Director for 1 gun, 2 gun, 3 gun, and USPSA, I think the best way to start PCC shooters is to have them hold the stock on their belts with gun pointed downrange, muzzle about eye level. Since pistols shooters draw and bring the gun up to eye level, the stock on belt most similarly mimics the draw bringing the rifle up to eye level. So my next USPSA match will be stock on belt...except for the classifier.

I personally would prefer that start position to have the rifle pointed downrange instead of upward---meaning it would be pointed into a berm, instead of over the berm. That's just a personal preference, so I'm good with whatever. But having the rifle start (right before people pull it up to their eyes while taking off the safety) pointed at a berm is something I like better.

Excellent post and I 100% agree it's been a very informative thread minus the one person.

[Southpaw]

As a Match Director for 1 gun, 2 gun, 3 gun, and USPSA, I think the best way to start PCC shooters is to have them hold the stock on their belts with gun pointed downrange, muzzle about eye level. Since pistols shooters draw and bring the gun up to eye level, the stock on belt most similarly mimics the draw bringing the rifle up to eye level. So my next USPSA match will be stock on belt...except for the classifier.

BTW...thanks to all who commented here...it brought up a lot of thought, and in some cases a lot of BS. But everyone has an opinion.

Just my opinion, but why would you want the start position for a carbine to mimic that of a pistol? It sounds like you're describing the same start position as posted in the video above. The one from that video looks like something made up just for 3 gun. I don't shoot 3 gun so have never heard of it before and was confused by the start position language in all the classifier WSBs.

It just seems like low ready is so much easier and everyone knows what that is. It's also a lot more of a practical position and this is USPSA afterall . I'd much rather have the default start position something like "low ready, barrel pointed down approximately 45 degrees" and then it's up to the RO to call a shooter out if he's trying to game it by not pointing low enough. Just like how it's on the RO to call shooters out for trying to game the default handgun start position of arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides.

Plus starting with the muzzle pointed down is safer than having the muzzle pointed over the berm since you know at some point someone's going to put a round over the berm while moving out of the start position and putting his or her finger on the trigger too early.

But that's just my opinion, which does not matter at all

[Rangerdug]

Did your AD help you right that?

No, I came up with that all by myself.

The point is that everybody is overthinking this. It is not complicated.

Listening to all ignorance is simply getting old. We are almost to IDPA retardation when it comes to this.

I'm curious if you even read what I wrote. It doesn't seem so.

You have tools talking about squading all PCC shooters, as if they are Lepers. So they can get their heads around it. ITS a gun just like the pistols we have been shooting. Point at Target shoot, don't break the 180, Done!!!

Then there is you talking about a "singular default position".

Do we get as stupid when comes to hands naturally at your side, or hands on head. Everybody does it their own way and the matches seem to run pretty smooth.

I take it you don't actually realize that there is a default start position for handgun, and everybody does not do it their own way?

I take it that you also didn't actually read what I wrote, when I said that like any other time, WSBs can specify other start positions, but having a singular one will solve the problems of people saying "port arms" or low ready which we already know people don't agree upon, or starting in random positions?

No?

That is funny!?!

Applying KISS "Keep It Simple Stupid Principle" will get us along way. Or we can reinvent the wheel just because we like the pain.

So....having a simple, single default start position for PCC exactly like we have a simple, single default start position for handgun is NOT applying the KISS principle, in your estimation?

What an interesting idea.

Reading this thread, if you remove all the posts by Rangerdug, there has been some good discussion and a minimum of namecalling.

Very Bold, but we don't have to be friends.

As a Match Director for 1 gun, 2 gun, 3 gun, and USPSA, I think the best way to start PCC shooters is to have them hold the stock on their belts with gun pointed downrange, muzzle about eye level. Since pistols shooters draw and bring the gun up to eye level, the stock on belt most similarly mimics the draw bringing the rifle up to eye level. So my next USPSA match will be stock on belt...except for the classifier.

I personally would prefer that start position to have the rifle pointed downrange instead of upward---meaning it would be pointed into a berm, instead of over the berm. That's just a personal preference, so I'm good with whatever. But having the rifle start (right before people pull it up to their eyes while taking off the safety) pointed at a berm is something I like better.

We are finally in agreement. Honestly, that is exactly my point of simplicity, not over thought.

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Edited July 5, 2016 by Rangerdug

[Mark R]

As a Match Director for 1 gun, 2 gun, 3 gun, and USPSA, I think the best way to start PCC shooters is to have them hold the stock on their belts with gun pointed downrange, muzzle about eye level. Since pistols shooters draw and bring the gun up to eye level, the stock on belt most similarly mimics the draw bringing the rifle up to eye level. So my next USPSA match will be stock on belt...except for the classifier.

I personally would prefer that start position to have the rifle pointed downrange instead of upward---meaning it would be pointed into a berm, instead of over the berm. That's just a personal preference, so I'm good with whatever. But having the rifle start (right before people pull it up to their eyes while taking off the safety) pointed at a berm is something I like better.

Ya know, I have to agree with you. Having a round go out of the range would/could lead to range shutdown and better to be safe than sorry. I will change my process for PCC this weekend. Thanks for the synapse trigger.