Practiscore, "protest periods" and busts....What should we do?

[ericm]

Rhetorical Question: What keeps people honest???

....think about this as we explore...

I see matches using Practiscore whereby, when all scores are finally entered, the match/practiscore enters the "protest period" where all are enjoined to check their individual scores.

This data presentation, however, does not include the standings, i.e. first thru last in any particular division.

Question: how does anyone, individually or collectively, find the "bust" (or multiple "busts") in the match?

Example: Shooter CCC gets their time transposed from 41.XX to 14.XX. Shooter CCC is not interested in checking his scores and this "bust" is not fixed. Shooter A and all others are suddenly at 50% or less than Shooter CCC on this stage.

In the preceding example, the "protest period" allows no way to find this bust, not to mention other HUGE busts I have witnessed such as shooters still retaining points from a stage that has been thrown out and many never shot.

I believe that the "protest period" should include all stage standings and overall standings that exist at that point. Only then will we have any chance at finding the "busts" in the match.

Discuss....

ericm

P.S.: My theory is that FULL disclosure in front of all competitors, friends and squadmates is what keeps people honest.

[wgj3]

...NM

Edited April 18, 2016 by wgj3

[euxx]

It is the match RO job to make sure time and the rest of the scores entered correctly. That also includes the match stats officer. He can easily check the combined standings for each stage few times every day, look for the anomalies and report to RM.

That of course does not guarantee he won't miss anything, but does help to notice things earlier.

[StealthyBlagga]

...

P.S.: My theory is that FULL disclosure in front of all competitors, friends and squadmates is what keeps people honest.

I agree 1000%

[pkm]

I don't really see why you would need the overall standings to verify your scores.. In theory you have a backup of some form that you can reference (leaving that topic alone).. But in general you have a paper backup you can match up each of your stages with.. You either check that and verify or you don't but at a minimum you should be able to check your stage standings.. With the exception of maybe one or two major Level II or III matches I have shot including the Level II I MD last year the individual stage results were printed out.

[Benelli Chick]

But, and I know what I speak...it's possible that your stage score is correct, but because of a glitch, your match score is NOT a combination of all your stage scores.

Computers do err...as well as people.

TO the one of you who thought the RO's should look through scores...ick! Mine are busy enough.

BUT, we do have a stats team to check all scores to be sure they match on paper and in the computer...hopefully, eliminates data entry errors. Also, my scorekeeper has a check system in place that pulls the top time from each stage and lets him review it...eliminates the problem ericm refers to in his question. At the time of this occurance, we were just checking to make sure the stage winner made sense...(good shooter....could win stages) but after THAT year, we pull name AND time.

He also does spot checks to be sure totals are correct...

Why does he do all this?? Because he's a perfectionist, but also because after a long, hard match...many people don't check their scores at all. They just assume the match got them right. With the use of nooks etc, some matches don't even give shooters yellows so they would have nothing to check unless they wrote every stage down on their own paper...so, they don't check. I know of a number of people that have gotten home and found out one of their scores was wrong long after the match was over...too late to make a change.

Match stats responsibility to do their best...shooters responsibility to check and question weird things they may notice, someone else may not. Remember, at a 300 person match with say...10 stages, that's 3000 scores to mess up...each one has time, penalties, bonuses etc....probably over 6000 places to make a booboo!!!

[Rookie]

Rhetorical Question: What keeps people honest???

....think about this as we explore...

I see matches using Practiscore whereby, when all scores are finally entered, the match/practiscore enters the "protest period" where all are enjoined to check their individual scores.

This data presentation, however, does not include the standings, i.e. first thru last in any particular division.

Question: how does anyone, individually or collectively, find the "bust" (or multiple "busts") in the match?

Example: Shooter CCC gets their time transposed from 41.XX to 14.XX. Shooter CCC is not interested in checking his scores and this "bust" is not fixed. Shooter A and all others are suddenly at 50% or less than Shooter CCC on this stage.

In the preceding example, the "protest period" allows no way to find this bust, not to mention other HUGE busts I have witnessed such as shooters still retaining points from a stage that has been thrown out and many never shot.

I believe that the "protest period" should include all stage standings and overall standings that exist at that point. Only then will we have any chance at finding the "busts" in the match.

Discuss....

ericm

P.S.: My theory is that FULL disclosure in front of all competitors, friends and squadmates is what keeps people honest.

The final posting should include the individual results and the overall... I have been burned at both ends.

1. I have had the decimal point moved to the right by 2 places (4900+ seconds on a stage... just under 1.5 hours) that might have been difficult to find in the overall for a 10+ stage match
2. I have had a stage score of zero included in the Overall posting, even though I had confirmed that all of my individual stage scores had been correctly entered (software glitch, apparently). In this particular instance, the overall standings were held back because the match director involved believes that the competitors "...enjoy the surprise". In my case, part of the surprise included walking the prize table about 25 places lower than my actual finish.

The final posting should consist of the individual stage results and the overall results...

[StealthyBlagga]

...

I have had a stage score of zero included in the Overall posting, even though I had confirmed that all of my individual stage scores had been correctly entered (software glitch, apparently). In this particular instance, the overall standings were held back because the match director involved believes that the competitors "...enjoy the surprise". In my case, part of the surprise included walking the prize table about 25 places lower than my actual finish.

...

[euxx]

TO the one of you who thought the RO's should look through scores...ick! Mine are busy enough.

Maybe your ROs should check with their rule books and do their job:

7.1.1 Range Officer (“RO”) – issues range commands, oversees competitor compliance with the written stage briefing and closely monitors safe competitor action. He also declares the time, scores and penalties achieved by each competitor and verifies that these are correctly recorded on the competitor’s score sheet (under the authority of a Chief Range Officer and Range Master).

But I wrote exactly the same thing for SO to check top results on each stage for any anomalies.

Edited April 19, 2016 by euxx

[101abn11b]

Maybe one should not assume a match is running on USPSA rules before opening their mouth and shoving there foot in it .

[ericm]

euxx: I admire your enthusiasm and your confidence in the match staff.

However, the reason we are "at where we are" both in USPSA matches and others that use Practiscore is the multiple failures to score matches correctly (I have witnessed too many personally).

What I propose comes at the end of the match, the "protest period" if you will, where ALL DATA is shared with ALL PARTICIPANTS to catch any lurking match "busts" (please re-read my original post).

The whole "we want a surprise at the end for rankings" just ain't cuttin' it.

ericm

[ericm]

Rhetorical Question: What keeps people honest???

....think about this as we explore...

I see matches using Practiscore whereby, when all scores are finally entered, the match/practiscore enters the "protest period" where all are enjoined to check their individual scores.

This data presentation, however, does not include the standings, i.e. first thru last in any particular division.

Question: how does anyone, individually or collectively, find the "bust" (or multiple "busts") in the match?

Example: Shooter CCC gets their time transposed from 41.XX to 14.XX. Shooter CCC is not interested in checking his scores and this "bust" is not fixed. Shooter A and all others are suddenly at 50% or less than Shooter CCC on this stage.

In the preceding example, the "protest period" allows no way to find this bust, not to mention other HUGE busts I have witnessed such as shooters still retaining points from a stage that has been thrown out and many never shot.

I believe that the "protest period" should include all stage standings and overall standings that exist at that point. Only then will we have any chance at finding the "busts" in the match.

Discuss....

ericm

P.S.: My theory is that FULL disclosure in front of all competitors, friends and squadmates is what keeps people honest.

The final posting should include the individual results and the overall... I have been burned at both ends.

1. I have had the decimal point moved to the right by 2 places (4900+ seconds on a stage... just under 1.5 hours) that might have been difficult to find in the overall for a 10+ stage match
2. I have had a stage score of zero included in the Overall posting, even though I had confirmed that all of my individual stage scores had been correctly entered (software glitch, apparently). In this particular instance, the overall standings were held back because the match director involved believes that the competitors "...enjoy the surprise". In my case, part of the surprise included walking the prize table about 25 places lower than my actual finish.

The final posting should consist of the individual stage results and the overall results...

If all match data were available, I'll bet someone would've caught your number 1 scenario above, even if you didn't.

These are the things that can get fixed if all information is out there.

"Hey, this last place guy had a 4900 second run on this stage. Does that sound right?? What else is wrong??"

ericm

[Benelli Chick]

euxx: I admire your enthusiasm and your confidence in the match staff.

However, the reason we are "at where we are" both in USPSA matches and others that use Practiscore is the multiple failures to score matches correctly (I have witnessed too many personally).

What I propose comes at the end of the match, the "protest period" if you will, where ALL DATA is shared with ALL PARTICIPANTS to catch any lurking match "busts" (please re-read my original post).

The whole "we want a surprise at the end for rankings" just ain't cuttin' it.

ericm

As one of those surprise MD's...I even agree and we posted it all last year!

But, we have the luxury of being done scoring for RM3G the night before awards so we have time to check and recheck!

[Benelli Chick]

TO the one of you who thought the RO's should look through scores...ick! Mine are busy enough.

Maybe your ROs should check with their rule books and do their job:

7.1.1 Range Officer (“RO”) – issues range commands, oversees competitor compliance with the written stage briefing and closely monitors safe competitor action. He also declares the time, scores and penalties achieved by each competitor and verifies that these are correctly recorded on the competitor’s score sheet (under the authority of a Chief Range Officer and Range Master).

But I wrote exactly the same thing for SO to check top results on each stage for any anomalies.

With the nooks...I can't even read my score...they do their best, but in the sun being sure that little decimal point isn't in the wrong place is not an easy task...people are fallible...RO's are volunteers and can only do their best.

Competitors need to check as well. Mistakes are made.

By the way, having the proper score on the score sheet is NOT always a guarantee that it's in the computer right...sometimes, even if it was entered correctly. Someone else overrides that entry...someone ends up correcting something for the wrong person...Sometimes, it's no ones fault...a computer glitch is often not even traceable to the programmer.

Doodoo happens!

[Shooter115]

In my own non-existent perfect world Practiscore designs their own nook that spits out a printed "receipt" upon hitting the save button. How awesome would that be......

Edited April 20, 2016 by Shooter115

[lcs]

It is the match RO job to make sure time and the rest of the scores entered correctly. That also includes the match stats officer. He can easily check the combined standings for each stage few times every day, look for the anomalies and report to RM.

That of course does not guarantee he won't miss anything, but does help to notice things earlier.

It is the competitors responsibility BEFORE signing his stage score sheet to ensure his/her times and hits are recorded correctly. In Practiscore mode, the competitor approves the "review" before the stage is saved or even after being saved.

[lcs]

TO the one of you who thought the RO's should look through scores...ick! Mine are busy enough.

Maybe your ROs should check with their rule books and do their job:

7.1.1 Range Officer (“RO”) – issues range commands, oversees competitor compliance with the written stage briefing and closely monitors safe competitor action. He also declares the time, scores and penalties achieved by each competitor and verifies that these are correctly recorded on the competitor’s score sheet (under the authority of a Chief Range Officer and Range Master).

But I wrote exactly the same thing for SO to check top results on each stage for any anomalies.

With the nooks...I can't even read my score...they do their best, but in the sun being sure that little decimal point isn't in the wrong place is not an easy task...people are fallible...RO's are volunteers and can only do their best.

Competitors need to check as well. Mistakes are made.

By the way, having the proper score on the score sheet is NOT always a guarantee that it's in the computer right...sometimes, even if it was entered correctly. Someone else overrides that entry...someone ends up correcting something for the wrong person...Sometimes, it's no ones fault...a computer glitch is often not even traceable to the programmer.

Doodoo happens!

Very true, that is why Level II/III match....You post the scores for everyone's review

[euxx]

In my own non-existent perfect world Practiscore designs their own nook that spits out a printed "receipt" upon hitting the save button. How awesome would that be......

It is done already, as long as you are willing to pay extra $150..200 for a printer and wifi access point for each stage.

[bikerburgess]

In my own non-existent perfect world Practiscore designs their own nook that spits out a printed "receipt" upon hitting the save button. How awesome would that be......

It is done already, as long as you are willing to pay extra $150..200 for a printer and wifi access point for each stage.

if your using Nooks you can do it for less, a cheep copier (think multifunction printer ~$60 + ink) takes about 15 seconds to copy the review page. I tested it for a match but end up doing it because I don't have power at my range.

[euxx]

By all means, just proves my point... Though my gear run on batteries.

[Nik Habicht]

So quick question: Can Practiscore generate a report of stage results with the stage winner at position 1, the second place shooter at position 2, etc.? EZWinscore handles things that way and at large matches it's common for stats to post stage results for all competitors to see during the match days, and following the end of each relay, if it's a multi-day match. In other words, when attending a Level 2 or Nats, I've always been able to check not just my scores but also my standing -- if the match is over, I can easily see that I finished 43rd on Stage 1, 32nd on Stage 2, and so on.....

And if Practiscore can do that easily, is there an easy way for stats to print those out without touching EZW?

[rhett45acp]

I know it does not fix directly the question, but as a scoring RO I always call out the hit factor to at completion of run. As a shooter I always ask for the hit factor at completion of run. This should give the Shooter/RO some feedback immediately something is not right. Then I have to trust the sync and the upstream activities happen correctly.

[Benelli Chick]

I know it does not fix directly the question, but as a scoring RO I always call out the hit factor to at completion of run. As a shooter I always ask for the hit factor at completion of run. This should give the Shooter/RO some feedback immediately something is not right. Then I have to trust the sync and the upstream activities happen correctly.

Even USPSA doesn't use hit factor for 3-Gun any more. It's time plus (either total or points per stage) so there's really no feedback like hit factor for a quick mental check! :-)

[rhett45acp]

I know it does not fix directly the question, but as a scoring RO I always call out the hit factor to at completion of run. As a shooter I always ask for the hit factor at completion of run. This should give the Shooter/RO some feedback immediately something is not right. Then I have to trust the sync and the upstream activities happen correctly.

Even USPSA doesn't use hit factor for 3-Gun any more. It's time plus (either total or points per stage) so there's really no feedback like hit factor for a quick mental check! :-)

I agree for 3 gun - but that's 3 gun and I really don't think HF is going anywhere anytime soon in the USPSA pistol world. But even in 3 gun. Some ACK/NACK audible between shooter and RO should be done as a courtesy.

[pkm]

So quick question: Can Practiscore generate a report of stage results with the stage winner at position 1, the second place shooter at position 2, etc.? EZWinscore handles things that way and at large matches it's common for stats to post stage results for all competitors to see during the match days, and following the end of each relay, if it's a multi-day match. In other words, when attending a Level 2 or Nats, I've always been able to check not just my scores but also my standing -- if the match is over, I can easily see that I finished 43rd on Stage 1, 32nd on Stage 2, and so on.....

And if Practiscore can do that easily, is there an easy way for stats to print those out without touching EZW?

Yes, you can print them as needed.