Vlad Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 (edited) This has been driving me mad for a while. I'll go zero my handgun, my usual "procedure" is to staple up a USPSA target, move back 16-18yards and shoot for head shots. If the shots land at the top of my front sight, plus or minus my usual error rate for shooting offhand, then I call it good. Then I go shooting matches and it mostly shoots where I expect it to, unless it is small steel in 3 gun. Strange right? Well I'm starting to notice in lots of 3gun stages we now have these 4" wide steel targets which might be engaged with shotgun or pistol. Without fail I miss these high until I adjust my point of aim to shoot WAY low, as in under the target low. Later in the match I may run into them again except now I have hold the correct sight alignment to hit them. It occurred to me recently that the big difference is height of the target, so I tested it today. I placed a paper target at the usual height, and a self resetting target 4" wide target about 10" off the ground, both at the same distance, and shot them a bit. The results were clear if I shot the paper target my shots would impact at POA, at match speed. If I shot the lower targets my shots would land 2-3" high if I shot at "match speed". If I slowed down and focused on it as if shooting groups, my higher aimed shots would tighten their group but land at the same elevation, the downwards shots would also shift back up to their expected POI. Speed up, the POI would climb up again. Crouch down and shoot it a match speed, POA is POI. Stand back up, they skewed again. Clearly I'm looking at the sights in a funny way when I'm shooting downward but I have yet to figure out why and how I'm doing it. Has anyone else seen this problem? How did you solve it? Edited March 20, 2016 by Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 I bet you're aiming with the fiber in your front sight, not the top of your front sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted March 20, 2016 Author Share Posted March 20, 2016 I bet you're aiming with the fiber in your front sight, not the top of your front sight. It is possible, but then why am I doing that only when shooting towards a low target but not when shooting level? I've been thinking it is that with small low targets I subconsciously move the gun under the target a bit so I can see the target that would otherwise be hidden, then tipping up the front sight to compensate (possibly with the fiber level with the top of the rear) and then shooting high. I'm not sure though, I'll have to conduct more experiments, but I appreciate any input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecmc Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 (edited) Vlad, dont really have much input for your sight vision issues, but - I noticed my "accuracy " increase when I started to "properly" sight in my guns. Personally, I like to use NRA-D1 targets to sight in, at about 20 yards. I find it easier to fine tune the sights aiming for the 4 inch black center at distance , rather then using a USPSA target and saying " ok - aimed A, hit A... good enough! " - the A zones on a USPSA target a huge in comparison. With my loads , everything seems to shoot exactly where i'm aiming from 3 yards out to 25. Perhaps you might try a different style of front sight/rear sight that might allow you to be more precise, rather then "combat sights " on most production guns ( dont know what you run ) I'll throw some in my truck to pass along to you next time we see each other. -alec Edited March 20, 2016 by alecmc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted March 20, 2016 Author Share Posted March 20, 2016 (edited) Sure I'll take your targets. I'm using the usual USPSA type sights flat black rear, dawson, 0.100 fiber front. I won't deny that I don't obsess over perfect zero's mostly because I don't think anyone currently makes an adjustable rear for my M&P so I can only mess with it so far, although I use the upper A not the lower one so it isn't exactly a huge target. Under ideal lighting conditions and with my mind into it, I can normally group about 3" at 25 yards offhand and where I want it. I'm just a bit puzzled by the change of POI from changing the height of the target. Edited March 20, 2016 by Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 Sure I'll take your targets. I'm using the usual USPSA type sights flat black rear, dawson, 0.100 fiber front. I won't deny that I don't obsess over perfect zero's mostly because I don't think anyone currently makes an adjustable rear for my M&P so I can only mess with it so far... My production gun has fixed sights and It's zeroed the same as all my adjustable sight guns. I did have to swap the front sight to accomplish this, but that's what $30? If you purchase front and rear sights as a "Perfect Impact" set from Dawson they will send you a new front sight free (just once) to correct the elevation. They'll even help you with the math when it comes time to order the new one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted March 20, 2016 Author Share Posted March 20, 2016 Right, what I'm saying is that I've been down that path and on paper at level shots it shoots exactly where I want it. I've swapped front sights until I'm where I want to be. The problem is when I shoot a targets at downwards angle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louu Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 Are you putting you head down or just your eyes when shooting the lower targets? Maybe try some different glasses? Have someone else try your gun. I don't know, just some thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan550 Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 Do you wear Rx glasses? That may be the problem due to induced parallax when using the portion closer to the center of the lenses as opposed to the upper section when you lower your head to shoot normally positioned targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted March 21, 2016 Author Share Posted March 21, 2016 I do wear glasses, but I have my prescription digitally mapped into my Rudy outer shields. I don't notice a distortion at any angle but I can try adjusting my viewing angle and see if that make a difference. Good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 One of two things is happening. Either you're using a different aiming point on small targets at speed (using the fiber etc.), or you're using a different sight picture (sights not level). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 I think you need one of these Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Sorry Vlad...I had too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted March 21, 2016 Author Share Posted March 21, 2016 One of two things is happening. Either you're using a different aiming point on small targets at speed (using the fiber etc.), or you're using a different sight picture (sights not level). That's probably true, I just haven't figured it out yet. My brain did seem to think it was seeing either of those two cases, but it has been known to lie to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted March 21, 2016 Author Share Posted March 21, 2016 I think you need one of these Thanx Patrick, do you think I need only one or should I get two and mount on either side for balance? Hell I may be able to mount them upside down on the light rail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missed it by that much Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Sure I'll take your targets. I'm using the usual USPSA type sights flat black rear, dawson, 0.100 fiber front. I won't deny that I don't obsess over perfect zero's mostly because I don't think anyone currently makes an adjustable rear for my M&P so I can only mess with it so far, although I use the upper A not the lower one so it isn't exactly a huge target. Under ideal lighting conditions and with my mind into it, I can normally group about 3" at 25 yards offhand and where I want it. I'm just a bit puzzled by the change of POI from changing the height of the target. Not sure if this will help but Dawson does make an adjustable rear sight for the m&p I have one on mine. If u shoot production that's another story but there is an adjustable sight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 They don't, not anymore or not right now. Also the sights shouldn't matter in production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 They don't, not anymore or not right now. Also the sights shouldn't matter in production.The sights always matter, but they don't need to be adjustable. Having a good zero is what matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 I think you misunderstood my point, they don't matter as it concerns production division, sights are allowed to be replaced. Yes, I'm pretty sure sights in general matter to shooting targets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 Clearly I'm looking at the sights in a funny way when I'm shooting downward but I have yet to figure out why and how I'm doing it. Has anyone else seen this problem? How did you solve it? My feeling is that it might be a natural tendency to not fully bury the front sight in the rear notch when aiming downward. Especially with a fiber optic and at speed. Shoot some shots slow fire (downward) and be sure to know the front sight is level with the rear notch for each shot, and see if that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missed it by that much Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 They don't, not anymore or not right now. Also the sights shouldn't matter in production.Springer precision sells adjustable sights also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Neill Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 At handgun ranges it should not be much, but, for rifles, uphill or downhill, the rule is to always aim low as the bullet impact will be high. Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bstocker1 Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 Have noticed this phenomenon as well. One of our local three gun matches has a tower set up, so pistol shots end up being at about a 20-30* downward angle. Shooting at plate racks form up there I've had to adjust my hold down 2-3" from normal before the plates would start dropping. Must be something I'm doing, I doubt the down angle would affect trajectory at 20ish yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted March 25, 2016 Author Share Posted March 25, 2016 I need more experimentation but I think I may have figured it out, and not surprisingly Brian was on the right track. I think I'm not driving the front side down enough but trying to figure out why that was lead me to the magwell. I think when I move my hands downwards it isn't entirely from my shoulders, or if it is the angles of my arms change to clear my chest, and then I noticed a significant difference in the pressure I felt from the magwell on the bottom of my hands. I think what is happening is that my grip changes and I apply what feel like the right hand position isn't and I'm fighting the sights. I took my mag well off and the brief initial testing showed promising results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 I need more experimentation but I think I may have figured it out, and not surprisingly Brian was on the right track. I think I'm not driving the front side down enough but trying to figure out why that was lead me to the magwell. I think when I move my hands downwards it isn't entirely from my shoulders... That's probably it. It's one of those all to common scenarios in which the natural response - moving your arms down instead of pivoting at the waist - is not the correct one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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