Production Division Rules for CZ 75-SP-01 Decocker

[GBertolet]

I wanted to buy one of these in 9mm as a plinker, with the possibility of someday using it to compete in Production division. Cajun Gun works sell them with a tune package, that reworks the trigger mechanisim, shortening the reset and initial DA pull. The latest USPSA rule book is a little vague, but I think the rule intent is, this modification is illegal for Production Division. Can anyone confirm this?

[JAFO]

I believe that since the package results in the default, hammer-down trigger position changing, it would be in conflict with this part of App D4, 21.1:

• Per existing NROI ruling, any “internal” modifications which result in a visible change to the external appearance of the gun when it is in battery REMAIN PROHIBITED unless specifically allowed by the plain language herein.

If they could work on the internals without visibly changing the DA trigger position, that would be OK.

[lcs]

I believe that since the package results in the default, hammer-down trigger position changing, it would be in conflict with this part of App D4, 21.1:

• Per existing NROI ruling, any “internal” modifications which result in a visible change to the external appearance of the gun when it is in battery REMAIN PROHIBITED unless specifically allowed by the plain language herein.

If they could work on the internals without visibly changing the DA trigger position, that would be OK.

Define "visibly" How much is that?

[JAFO]

CGW states that their modification shortens the DA trigger position by 5mm. Honestly, I don't think most people would notice that upon a casual inspection, but if you put a stock SP-01 and one with that mod in it side-by-side, it would be an externally visible change.

I thought there was a thread on something similar to this, but it was a long time ago and I can't find it. I seem to recall that trigger jobs that change the SA position were OK because that was not a visible modification when the gun was in the default ready state (in battery with the hammer down for DA/SA).

[Nik Habicht]

Can you find language in the Production Division rules that specifically allows a 5mm in where the trigger resets? No? Then not allowed.....

[bigdave24]

Just ask CGW to make sure it's production legal. Reset can be reduced without making it a short reach trigger.

[busdriver02]

NROI ruling ref magazine releases:

Note that an internal modification to a magazine-release mechanism which results in shifting the magazine-release laterally (i.e., making the part stick out further on one side of the gun) would be considered an “internal modification”, and is allowed.

[JAFO]

NROI ruling ref magazine releases:

Note that an internal modification to a magazine-release mechanism which results in shifting the magazine-release laterally (i.e., making the part stick out further on one side of the gun) would be considered an “internal modification”, and is allowed.[/size]

Not sure what that has to do with the legality of the trigger mod for Production.

If you are going to ask CGW, verify that they have run it by DNROI, not just that their interpretation is that it's legal.

[busdriver02]

Only that it's an example of an internal mod that externally moves something and is approved based on being internal.

[JAFO]

That's true, but this statement in App D4 precludes using a listed exemption to justify one that is not listed.

22

Specifically prohibited modifications and features

Please note that the absence of an item in the list of prohibited modifications MAY NOT be construed to mean a modification is allowed. A modification is only allowed in Production Division if there is a rules clause or interpretation which specifically declares that it is allowed in the Division.

Edited February 11, 2016 by JAFO

[rooster]

This thread got me thinking, if you remove pre travel and over travel in a glock is it a visible mod. the trigger safety tab is now almost against the frame where without the mod it is clearly more forward.

[Sarge]

This thread got me thinking, if you remove pre travel and over travel in a glock is it a visible mod. the trigger safety tab is now almost against the frame where without the mod it is clearly more forward.

When I had my g34 "tricked out" I could clearly tell the difference next to a stock Glock. But nobody else ever did.

[busdriver02]

I get the specific listing clause in production rules. My point was that the logic behind the mag release ruling was clearly laid out. So unless the intent is to have the NROI rule on every single possible combination (as an example a disconnector mod is ruled on, but disconnector and different OFM trigger combo is not ruled on... you could get pretty ridiculous if you wanted to) then we could follow the same logic to arrive at internal mods that move external parts but don't change their physical shape should be legal.

Certainly NROI gets to decide, but the precedent is there.

[IronicTwitch]

Pretty sure CGW's reach reduction trigger includes a non factory pretravel screw which makes it a visible modification.

Here's the language from CGW's site.

"Is it legal for shooting sports? No. The pre-travel set screw installed on the upper area of the trigger is visible. However, you can use the modified RRK disconnector w/o the upper trigger screw to noticeable reduce the DA stroke."

https://cajungunworks.com/product/rrk-t2-reach-reduction-kit/

[spencerattix]

When I talked to the folks at CGW about my build, I was given many options in regards to replacement/upgrade parts. At each step of the way I was told what would be or would not be production legal. Those guys understand this game. At least that is my impression.

[lcs]

I wanted to buy one of these in 9mm as a plinker, with the possibility of someday using it to compete in Production division. Cajun Gun works sell them with a tune package, that reworks the trigger mechanisim, shortening the reset and initial DA pull. The latest USPSA rule book is a little vague, but I think the rule intent is, this modification is illegal for Production Division. Can anyone confirm this?

The Cajun Pro-Package would be illegal for production. The trigger is visibly modified with a set screw.

[lcs]

Can you find language in the Production Division rules that specifically allows a 5mm in where the trigger resets? No? Then not allowed.....

5mm = 13/64 of an inch. Really! I don't think there is a trigger package/modification out there that doesn't move the trigger a touch. Look out everyone, we will be looking at everyone's trigger position with a micrometer at Chrono. They will have a brand new model of everyone's gun to compare.

Smartass mode off.

[Nik Habicht]

Can you find language in the Production Division rules that specifically allows a 5mm in where the trigger resets? No? Then not allowed.....

5mm = 13/64 of an inch. Really! I don't think there is a trigger package/modification out there that doesn't move the trigger a touch. Look out everyone, we will be looking at everyone's trigger position with a micrometer at Chrono. They will have a brand new model of everyone's gun to compare.

Smartass mode off.

He asked if it was allowed -- it's not. He didn't ask if he'd be caught and moved and to open -- that's possible but unlikely.....

[bikerburgess]

That's true, but this statement in App D4 precludes using a listed exemption to justify one that is not listed.

22

Specifically prohibited modifications and features

Please note that the absence of an item in the list of prohibited modifications MAY NOT be construed to mean a modification is allowed. A modification is only allowed in Production Division if there is a rules clause or interpretation which specifically declares that it is allowed in the Division.

This is my least favorite section of the rule book.

D4-21 says if its not specifically listed as legal it isn't. What is the use of a incomplete list of what some of those non legal items may be

[Bkreutz]

That's true, but this statement in App D4 precludes using a listed exemption to justify one that is not listed.

22

Specifically prohibited modifications and features

Please note that the absence of an item in the list of prohibited modifications MAY NOT be construed to mean a modification is allowed. A modification is only allowed in Production Division if there is a rules clause or interpretation which specifically declares that it is allowed in the Division.

This is my least favorite section of the rule book.

D4-21 says if its not specifically listed as legal it isn't. What is the use of a incomplete list of what some of those non legal items may be

What it does do is allow certain things to be deemed illegal without having to wait for 2 years between equipment rule changes. (wait, did I just say that? )

[bikerburgess]

That's true, but this statement in App D4 precludes using a listed exemption to justify one that is not listed.

22

Specifically prohibited modifications and features

Please note that the absence of an item in the list of prohibited modifications MAY NOT be construed to mean a modification is allowed. A modification is only allowed in Production Division if there is a rules clause or interpretation which specifically declares that it is allowed in the Division.

This is my least favorite section of the rule book.

D4-21 says if its not specifically listed as legal it isn't. What is the use of a incomplete list of what some of those non legal items may be

What it does do is allow certain things to be deemed illegal without having to wait for 2 years between equipment rule changes. (wait, did I just say that? )

No it doesn't.

D4-21 would allow things to be made legal through a DNROI ruling without the 2 year wait. remember in Production EVERYTHING is illegal unless it is specifically allowed (D4-21 and DNROI rulings) D4-22 is a list of illegal things that says to start off that it is not a complete list. If EVERYTHING that is not listed in the rules and rulings is illegal why do we have a list of what some of those items are?

also I have seen high ranking officials erroneously use the list in D4-22 to say something IS legal when the rule itself says it cant do that.