Bottom Edge of Ramp Deforming .40 JHPs.

[Ssanders224]

Ok, here we go...

I might have posted this here a while back, can't remember.

I recently posted it on the 2011 Enthusiasts FB page, but no one really knew the root cause. It's not an easy fix, and I know WHAT is happening, I just cannot figure out how to correct it.

A while back, I noticed during ULSC that the nose of my JHPs would be slightly deformed. I ignored it for a while, but kept noticing it.

After looking into it, I diagnosed it as the very bottom edge of the feed ramp making contact with the top round in the mag during the ejection cycle. OK, so I shortened the bottom corner of the ramp (it isnt used for feeding anyhow). No dice, issue still appeared. There was no point in shortening the ramp any further, as it did not protrude past the frame at all really after the modification.

So, I ignored it a while longer....

Well, a couple of weeks ago, I noticed that when it happens, it is setting some of the affected bullets back too much. I'm NOT ok with that, and can't ignore it.

I still have no idea why it's happening, and cannot figure out how to correct it.

Information to note before posting:

Schuemann Ultimatch barrel.

Gun was built by a popular Smith.

It does not cause jams, gun runs 100%.

It is NOT a mag issue. Does it with any mag.

This is not happening during feeding.... It is happening to the top round in the mag during ejection.

Thanks in advance to any and all that may have encountered this or know of a solution!

[darkvibe]

Is this the "smiley" shaped mark on the bullets?

[Hi-Power Jack]

This is not happening during feeding.... It is happening to the top round in the mag during ejection.

I'm fishing here ... But, sounds like you're saying that as the empy cartridge is ejected,

it is damaging the top round in the mag ???

Sounds like your top round is sitting a little too high in the mag?

Or the mag is sitting too high in the gun?

Or, the empty case is being driven back and DOWN, into the

fresh cartridge in the mag?

The only possibilities I can think of ... ???

And, if you're shooting .40 major, you should be Very Concerned

re: bullet setback.

[Ssanders224]

Is this the "smiley" shaped mark on the bullets?

Kind of. before I shortened the ramp it was somewhat of a "smiley" i guess.

Now it hits flatter... so not so much.

[Ssanders224]

This is not happening during feeding.... It is happening to the top round in the mag during ejection.

I'm fishing here ... But, sounds like you're saying that as the empy cartridge is ejected,

it is damaging the top round in the mag ???

Sounds like your top round is sitting a little too high in the mag?

Or the mag is sitting too high in the gun?

Or, the empty case is being driven back and DOWN, into the

fresh cartridge in the mag?

The only possibilities I can think of ... ???

And, if you're shooting .40 major, you should be Very Concerned

re: bullet setback.

As the empty case is being ejected... the barrel is also moving reward and dropping, and at some point contacts the next round.

Good thoughts....

But the height of the round (or mag) isn't the issue. You could move the round (or mag) a lot in either direction and it would still happen. It's not like the ramp only catches the nose of the bullet by a few thousandths. The bullet would have to move WAY down to prevent this.... which is not practical.

It is not the empty case causing the damage. Nose of the bullet contacts the bottom edge of the ramp. I know this for sure. It leaves a very obvious signature on the bullet and ramp.

[ParaGunner]

What's the oal of your ammo? Got any pics of the issue or inside the frame where it happening?

[tyler2you]

I had a similar experience with no real resolution besides using the EGW undersized die to give a little bit of insurance against setback. It actually happens with both of my guns from different smiths.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=215832&hl

[Ssanders224]

What's the oal of your ammo? Got any pics of the issue or inside the frame where it happening?

I can post some pics when I get home later.

OAL doesnt afftect it. From 1.180 down to inside SAAMI lengths, it still hits.

[Ssanders224]

I had a similar experience with no real resolution besides using the EGW undersized die to give a little bit of insurance against setback. It actually happens with both of my guns from different smiths.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=215832&hl

Wow... Your the first person I've found that understands the issue.. and is trying to deal with it.

Your posts are pretty much EXACTLY what I did.

I'm already crimping the crap out of the bullet... I put a pretty good line in the jacket. It will still set one back sometimes.

As you know, the ramp whacks the bullet pretty good.

[ParaGunner]

What's the oal of your ammo? Got any pics of the issue or inside the frame where it happening?

I can post some pics when I get home later.

OAL doesnt afftect it. From 1.180 down to inside SAAMI lengths, it still hits.

So what your saying is when the slide cycles back and the barrel unlocks and drops down ,the bottom of the barrel ramp is hitting the next round in your mag? Correct?

[Ssanders224]

What's the oal of your ammo? Got any pics of the issue or inside the frame where it happening?

I can post some pics when I get home later.

OAL doesnt afftect it. From 1.180 down to inside SAAMI lengths, it still hits.

So what your saying is when the slide cycles back and the barrel unlocks and drops down ,the bottom of the barrel ramp is hitting the next round in your mag? Correct?

Yep, that is exactly what happens.

Check these two older threads for pics of the exact same problems.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=215832&hl

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=175497

[bountyhunter]

Is this the "smiley" shaped mark on the bullets?

Kind of. before I shortened the ramp it was somewhat of a "smiley" i guess.

Now it hits flatter... so not so much.

Maybe you can recut the feed ramp to shorten it a bit as shown in the referenced thread?

Edited December 15, 2015 by bountyhunter

[Ssanders224]

Here's some pics....

Damage it causes to the bullet.

Two marks on the ramp.

Third pic is after I tried shortening the ramp.... as you can see, the bullet nose "mark" is still visible at the bottom.

[ltdmstr]

You have two problems. One is the smiley impression on the round feeding up from the magazine, the other is the bullet setback. The first is fixed by making the ramp surface flush with the frame. From the picture, I can see that it is not. That whole ramp area can move forward a fair amount (keeping the same angle) before you have any issues with case not being sufficiently supported. The bullet setback can be an issue even if you fix the first. And that is addressed by properly sizing your brass. You can determine this by measuring the i.d. of a sized case and the o.d. of the bullet. The case should be at least .002 smaller that the bullet. You need an interference fit to hold the bullet in place. Crimp does not do this, and is not intended to.

[ParaGunner]

+1 Ramp needs cut flush to frame.

[Ssanders224]

You have two problems. One is the smiley impression on the round feeding up from the magazine, the other is the bullet setback. The first is fixed by making the ramp surface flush with the frame. From the picture, I can see that it is not. That whole ramp area can move forward a fair amount (keeping the same angle) before you have any issues with case not being sufficiently supported. The bullet setback can be an issue even if you fix the first. And that is addressed by properly sizing your brass. You can determine this by measuring the i.d. of a sized case and the o.d. of the bullet. The case should be at least .002 smaller that the bullet. You need an interference fit to hold the bullet in place. Crimp does not do this, and is not intended to.

No disrespect, but you are simplifying the issue a little.

You can call it 2 different issues if you'd like, but it is one in the same. The setback occurs when the bottom of the ramp slams into the bullet. Even with proper case tension, and crimp, the round is not meant to be subjected to that type of impact.

Set a round on the bench and wack the bullet nose with a small hammer. See what happens.

I have proper case tension... And yes a heavier crimp can help reduce setback (although a bandaid), as it is essentially just increasing case tension.

The deformed nose does not happen to EVERY round, and the ones that are not affected are also never set back.

As to the ramp, it's not that simple either.

I have shortened it more since that picture with no change.

I have also tried my rounds and my mags in another limited gun in which the ramp extends past the frame... And the problem did not show up.

It is somewhat of a ghost problem I guess... But one I need to resolve:

[ltdmstr]

The bottom of the ramp should not slam into the bullet nose when the slide is traveling back. If it is, the ramp is sticking out past the frame surface. As for case tension, if the impact from the barrel is moving the bullet back from impact, then there's a good chance it can happen during feeding and/or other issues. A good check is to push the bullet nose hard on the reloading bench. If it moves back, then you don't have sufficient tension. As for crimp, retaining the bullet, that's simply not true. It is on a revolver cartridge, which has a roll crimp, but not on a semi-auto, which has a taper crimp. On a semi-auto, it's intended only to facilitate feeding. In fact, too much crimp will have a negative effect on accuracy. And most only crimp by .001 or .002; basically just enough to remove any fair.

Edited December 16, 2015 by ltdmstr

[ParaGunner]

Is the frame in spec? Have you asked the builder about this?

[Ssanders224]

The bottom of the ramp should not slam into the bullet nose when the slide is traveling back. If it is, the ramp is sticking out past the frame surface. As for case tension, if the impact from the barrel is moving the bullet back from impact, then there's a good chance it can happen during feeding and/or other issues. A good check is to push the bullet nose hard on the reloading bench. If it moves back, then you don't have sufficient tension. As for crimp, retaining the bullet, that's simply not true. It is on a revolver cartridge, which has a roll crimp, but not on a semi-auto, which has a taper crimp. On a semi-auto, it's intended only to facilitate feeding. In fact, too much crimp will have a negative effect on accuracy. And most only crimp by .001 or .002; basically just enough to remove any fair. Feel free to disregard if you don't agree. But I've been building high-end 1911s for 20+ years and reloading for a lot longer than that. Just trying to help.

First off, again, no disrespect. I genuinely appreciate you adding to the thread and trying to help. It's why I posted here.

I'm not disregarding what you are saying, and really don't disagree with any of it, however.....

The ramp extends past the frame in many 2011s when the barrel is at its most reward position. I've tried my mags and loads in 2 different guns with this characteristic, and neither of them presented the "smiley" problem.

Also, like I said, since that photo, I have further shortened the ramp so that it is flush with the frame. It did NOT change the problem. The bullet is still affected.

I'm not new to reloading either. I have plenty of case tension, and I'm very aware of how the bullet and case interact with each other. The rounds would have NO issues with setback under normal conditions.

I agree, a taper crimp is not intended to help hold the bullet in place. However, mechanically speaking, when your taper crimp is visible on a pulled jacketed bullet, it is absolutely increasing the force needed to set a bullet back in the case. (Although there is no need to crimp this hard)

Let me put it this way, I appreciate the help, and recommendations on loading... But the loads are NOT the issue.

Something is causing the top round in the mag to scoot forward, and the ramp is slamming into it during the unlocking and ejection process.

[Ssanders224]

For instance... Here's a Brazos.

Ramp extends much further past the frame than mine. But does not cause the issue.

[ltdmstr]

Ok, no problem. And no need for us to go on about the loads. Re: the photo, I agree, and I have some that hang over even more than that. But it depends on the particular combination. For your setup, when the rounds are in the mag, isn't there a fair amout of space in front of the round, so it would essentially have to float forward to hit the ramp? And assuming that's the case, when the ramp hits it, I would think the round would move back. I have a difficult time envisioning the ramp moving back and the bullet being impacted on the nose with the case rim at the back of the magazine tube. Are you sure it's not the slide coming forward and picking up the round then impacting the bottom of the ramp?

[Ssanders224]

Now we're more on the same page

Your right in that the round is definitely "forward" in the mag when it is hit by the ramp. There's no way it can be in the back of the mag and be hit.

My current theory is that as the slide is loading the top round, the one under it is influenced forward. Then after the round is fired and the barrel comes back, it hits next round (that was slid forward).

Just spitballing.

[ltdmstr]

I was typing that when you posted. And to suggest that you check your mags and springs. Personally, I use Wolff springs cut down to 11 coils. Also check the angle of your followers. They should not be pointing up too high as that can force the top round to exert pressure unevenly on the rear of the case below, dragging it forward.

[Toolguy]

Maybe if you're using heavy bullets the force of the major recoil is making the bullet slide forward in the magazine at the same time the barrel is coming back. If that's the case, the gun would be moving back into the bullet pretty hard.

[Ssanders224]

Maybe if you're using heavy bullets the force of the major recoil is making the bullet slide forward in the magazine at the same time the barrel is coming back. If that's the case, the gun would be moving back into the bullet pretty hard.

Just 180s.

I kinda wondered if that might be the case, and the inertia of the bullet was causing it to slide forward under recoil...

But If you study it, that doesn't really work with the sequence of events.

And ...I'm just being honest here really... I don't let the gun move very much at all. I've got some big mits.