Building an AR chambered in .40 SW

[gdcguns]

That's what I thought too, but if you read the proposed rules posted earlier by Zack they say a stock is required.

[ZackJones]

Why would the rules require that?

If someone wanted to shoot without a stock of think they would be at a disadvantage so why prohibit it?

When I wrote up the proposal I envisioned it would be for people shooting an AR-like rifle chambered in a Pistol Caliber (9, 40, etc.). My thinking at the time was if everyone is shooting a shouldered rifle like we do in the rimfire rifle division today it would be easier to define the start position. How would someone shooting an AR-Pistol chambered in 9mm start the stage? Would they hold it like we hold our rimfire pistols now? I'm sure our new President and members of the board are smarter than I am on this stuff so they'll be taking it into consideration. If you have input you want them to consider prior to the January meeting email them but again please keep in mind we are talking bout PCC for Steel Challenge. That's the only proposal that was put forth and approved as a provisional division. In my proposal I didn't request consideration for USPSA matches. That should be submitted as a separate proposal.

[alma]

Why would the rules require that?

If someone wanted to shoot without a stock of think they would be at a disadvantage so why prohibit it?

When I wrote up the proposal I envisioned it would be for people shooting an AR-like rifle chambered in a Pistol Caliber (9, 40, etc.). My thinking at the time was if everyone is shooting a shouldered rifle like we do in the rimfire rifle division today it would be easier to define the start position. How would someone shooting an AR-Pistol chambered in 9mm start the stage? Would they hold it like we hold our rimfire pistols now? I'm sure our new President and members of the board are smarter than I am on this stuff so they'll be taking it into consideration. If you have input you want them to consider prior to the January meeting email them but again please keep in mind we are talking bout PCC for Steel Challenge. That's the only proposal that was put forth and approved as a provisional division. In my proposal I didn't request consideration for USPSA matches. That should be submitted as a separate proposal.

For a start condition it could be as simple as adding "or arms fully extended" as opposed to just shouldered.

[Stlhead]

If it has no stock it is a pistol, already covered under the pistol rules. A PCC has a stock.

[StealthyBlagga]

...What I submitted read as follows (Of course I have no idea if it'll be changed so consider this a very rough first draft)...

Minimum Barrel Length - None. (The original outline stated 16" but I think SBR folks want to play so why not include them).

Accepted calibers - 9mm, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, 10mm, .45 ACP

Minimum velocity - none

Maximum velocity - 1600 FPS

Magazine Capacity Limit - None

Must have stock attached and fired from shoulder position - yes

Sling use authorized - yes

Optical sight/electronic sights permitted - open carbines only

Compensators permitted - open carbines only

Muzzle Brake - Left this one blank as Troy said he was going to use some multigun rule verbiage.

Start Position - Low ready pointed at aiming cone, safety off, finger off of trigger but may be inside trigger guard

If you guys see anything I left out please let me know. Like I said this is a first draft so there's no telling what's going to stay and what's going to change/be removed.

This is an excellent start. Some comments:

* It is good that you explicitly list the acceptable calibers. If you leave it more flexible, you run the risk that someone will run a .30 M1 carbine, a 5.7x28 or some other funky rifle cartridge that can be shoehorned into a pistol.

* A shoulder stock should be required in order to meet the Federal definition of a "rifle". The BATF has ruled that shooting a brace-equipped pistol off the shoulder is ILLEGAL under Federal law. If folks want to shoot a pistol, they have 7 existing divisions to choose from.

* Stick with ONE division only. Muzzle brakes, optics, long barrels, short barrels, all manner of magazine etc should all be allowed. If we ever get to the point where it makes sense to segregate the PCC division into subdivisions, we will be at the point where we should make it a completely separate, stand alone match/discipline. That is going to be WAAAYYY in the future.

* Score all PCCs using the same Power Factor (Minor would bias the match towards accuracy without having to extend target distances).

* Start position = Loaded, Low Ready, Safety On unless otherwise stipulated. We have a very clear definition of "Low Ready" in IMA-SMM3G Rules (see rule 4.5.2)

Edited December 15, 2015 by StealthyBlagga

[nitrohuck]

............... sooooooooooooooo

lots of fun talk about PCC rules and regulations, but no one has told me where I can find a decent .40sw upper! (To the guy who suggested the MPX, that might not be a shabby idea, thanks)

[ZackJones]

This is an excellent start. Some comments:

* It is good that you explicitly list the acceptable calibers. If you leave it more flexible, you run the risk that someone will run a .30 M1 carbine, a 5.7x28 or some other funky rifle cartridge that can be shoehorned into a pistol.

* A shoulder stock should be required in order to meet the Federal definition of a "rifle". The BATF has ruled that shooting a brace-equipped pistol off the shoulder is ILLEGAL under Federal law. If folks want to shoot a pistol, they have 7 existing divisions to choose from.

* Stick with ONE division only. Muzzle brakes, optics, long barrels, short barrels, all manner of magazine etc should all be allowed. If we ever get to the point where it makes sense to segregate the PCC division into subdivisions, we will be at the point where we should make it a completely separate, stand alone match/discipline. That is going to be WAAAYYY in the future.

* Score all PCCs using the same Power Factor (Minor would bias the match towards accuracy without having to extend target distances).

* Start position = Loaded, Low Ready, Safety On unless otherwise stipulated. We have a very clear definition of "Low Ready" in IMA-SMM3G Rules (see rule 4.5.2)

Thanks some quick feedback.

Calibers - I figured listing the specific calibers would be a smart thing to do. I also discussed various calibers with Karl from GT Targets, which is what we use for our steel challenge matches, and he said those listed would be fine with the steel we use.

Stocks - I do think a shoulder stock should be required. Like I mentioned earlier I based my proposal on what we use for Rimfire Rifle now and all of our rifles we shoot have stocks.

Division - Single one proposed separated based on sights like we do in Rimfire.

Power Factor - in Steel Challenge we don't have a power factor but I would agree if/when it migrates to USPSA then score everyone, regardless of caliber, minor.

Start Position - Agree for future USPSA adaption but for steel challenge we are permitted to start with safety off when starting from low ready.

[ZackJones]

............... sooooooooooooooo

lots of fun talk about PCC rules and regulations, but no one has told me where I can find a decent .40sw upper! (To the guy who suggested the MPX, that might not be a shabby idea, thanks)

Oops - How about Lone Wolf - http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=792965&CAT=2895

[gdcguns]

Rock River Arms makes one

[ac4wordplay]

Hey Zack, I understand you had some input with drafting the proposed PCC equipment guidelines. Any chance you can give us a hint of the highlights?

Sure. Troy sent me a rough outline for PCC which I then drafted into a proposed appendix for the steel challenge rule book. What I submitted read as follows (Of course I have no idea if it'll be changed so consider this a very rough first draft)

Also please keep in mind this is the proposal for steel challenge only.

Minimum Barrel Length - None. (The original outline stated 16" but I think SBR folks want to play so why not include them).

Accepted calibers - 9mm, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, 10mm, .45 ACP

Minimum velocity - none

Maximum velocity - 1600 FPS

Magazine Capacity Limit - None

Must have stock attached and fired from shoulder position - yes

Sling use authorized - yes

Optical sight/electronic sights permitted - open carbines only

Compensators permitted - open carbines only

Muzzle Brake - Left this one blank as Troy said he was going to use some multigun rule verbiage.

Start Position - Low ready pointed at aiming cone, safety off, finger off of trigger but may be inside trigger guard

If you guys see anything I left out please let me know. Like I said this is a first draft so there's no telling what's going to stay and what's going to change/be removed.

"finger off of trigger but may be inside trigger guard"

This seems problematic. What's wrong with using USPSA MG start position rules (safety on, finger outside trigger guard)?

[ZackJones]

Hey Zack, I understand you had some input with drafting the proposed PCC equipment guidelines. Any chance you can give us a hint of the highlights?

Sure. Troy sent me a rough outline for PCC which I then drafted into a proposed appendix for the steel challenge rule book. What I submitted read as follows (Of course I have no idea if it'll be changed so consider this a very rough first draft)

Also please keep in mind this is the proposal for steel challenge only.

Minimum Barrel Length - None. (The original outline stated 16" but I think SBR folks want to play so why not include them).

Accepted calibers - 9mm, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, 10mm, .45 ACP

Minimum velocity - none

Maximum velocity - 1600 FPS

Magazine Capacity Limit - None

Must have stock attached and fired from shoulder position - yes

Sling use authorized - yes

Optical sight/electronic sights permitted - open carbines only

Compensators permitted - open carbines only

Muzzle Brake - Left this one blank as Troy said he was going to use some multigun rule verbiage.

Start Position - Low ready pointed at aiming cone, safety off, finger off of trigger but may be inside trigger guard

If you guys see anything I left out please let me know. Like I said this is a first draft so there's no telling what's going to stay and what's going to change/be removed.

"finger off of trigger but may be inside trigger guard"

This seems problematic. What's wrong with using USPSA MG start position rules (safety on, finger outside trigger guard)?

Our current rules under steel challenge permit the safety to be off and our finger to be inside the trigger guard. Keep in mind even though USPSA owns steel challenge we have, for the most part, our own unique set of rules. I'm certain there will be a different rule set if/when it's added to USPSA matches. Also what's posted is just my input on the topic to DNROI. It's up to the BoD and DNROI to publish the final appendix after the January meeting.

[Alaskapopo]

"Must have stock attached and fired from shoulder position - yes"

Why include this? If you're gonna allow the SBR crowd to play, why not allow the AR pistol crowd to play too? A lot of them could be just waiting on their tax stamp. There's no advantage to shooting with just the buffer tube, so why exclude them?

Because if they shoulder the buffer tube in a match instant felony according to the most recent BATFE ruling.

[gdcguns]

"Must have stock attached and fired from shoulder position - yes"

Why include this? If you're gonna allow the SBR crowd to play, why not allow the AR pistol crowd to play too? A lot of them could be just waiting on their tax stamp. There's no advantage to shooting with just the buffer tube, so why exclude them?

Because if they shoulder the buffer tube in a match instant felony according to the most recent BATFE ruling.

I'm pretty sure that ruling specifically addressed the sig brace, not the buffer tube alone.

[Stlhead]

What if I fire my pistol from retention with the mag well pressed against my muffin top? Am I committing a felony?

[wgj3]

For the sake of appearances of the sport, only "rifles" with legit buttstocks attached. No braces or bare buffer tubes, etc. Pictures will be posted of these events. No need to give "antis" any ammo by suggesting that we are bunch of scofflaws shouldering our non-rifles. I have zero issue with anyone doing it themselves, on their time, but USPSA/SCSA need to keep all the publicity clean. Plus, no need to raise the eyebrows of the ATF and make them think that they need to do anything to existing legal verbiage (unless they want to scrap it entirely which seems highly unlikely).This point seems like a no-brainer to me.

Edited December 20, 2015 by wgj3

[ac4wordplay]

For the sake of appearances of the sport, only "rifles" with legit buttstocks attached. No braces or bare buffer tubes, etc. Pictures will be posted of these events. No need to give "antis" any ammo by suggesting that we are bunch of scofflaws shouldering our non-rifles. I have zero issue with anyone doing it themselves, on their time, but USPSA/SCSA need to keep all the publicity clean. Plus, no need to raise the eyebrows of the ATF and make them think that they need to do anything to existing legal verbiage (unless they want to scrap it entirely which seems highly unlikely).This point seems like a no-brainer to me.

Agreed.

[jimmcc]

I have an Olympic Arms .40 AR that takes the Glock mags. I played with building a 30rd mag with limited success but the factory 22rd have ran flawless. You fan get an A3 upper from them if you ask for just a little money more than the A2. I had the $60 upgraded trigger done also and it was definitely better than stock but I've dropped my AR Gold in it and forgot about it. Just another option for someone like me that didn't want to reload specifically for a carbine when loading for a Limited pistol.

[splashdown]

I've been looking at PCC's recently as well. The stuff from quarter circle 10 looks good to me. I like the idea of a Glock mag fed PCC in the same caliber as my pistol. I could have several mags on the belt and shoot both the pistol and carbine with the any mag. They do have 9, 40 and 45.

[FULLMETAL]

I really enjoy mine in 9mm I think 40 would also be fun