Glockinator Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 I built a upper with a barrel that had good reviews but was not a big name brand and did not get good accuracy. 3 shots would be about 3.5 moa, by the time 10 shots were on paper it would open up to 6 moa. Thinking it was the barrel I replaced it with a better Rainier barrel in 223 Wylde. Tried sighting it in last weekend and it was printing all over the paper. Hard to say it grouped at all. I didn't see any patterns like vertical or horizontal stringing. Even tried a couple of different types of ammo. The barrel was tight enough in the BCM upper I had to heat the upper with a heat gun to get it in so that should not be a problem. The barrel nut hit right at a gas tube hole at 30 foot pounds so I left it the first time around. I'm using a Nordic rifle length hand guard on a intermediate length barrel with a Syrac lo pro adjustable gas block. Nothing seems to be touching anywhere. I'm using a DPMS bolt carrier group and not noticing any interference with the gas tube. After seeing poor accuracy I got to thinking the barrel nut was not tight enough so I took it apart to check it and tightened it to 30 foot pounds and then went to the next hole. So it definitely should be tight enough now. I'm not seeing any signs of strikes on the PA m4-72 comp. if it does not group well this next outing I'm at a loss to explain why. I'm using a Nikon P223 scope and Nikon mount so those "should" be ok though I am wondering about it now. I'm planning on taking another scope if I need to rule the scope out on the next outing. Any words of wisdom, 'cause I am scratching my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoganbillJ Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 What ammo are you using? Have you tried using any different ammo? Definitely try a different scope and see where that gets you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glockinator Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 (edited) Tried 62 grain hand loads, factory 55 grain and some IMI 79 grain. All had the same results. A CMC flat 3.5 pound trigger arrives today to rule out issues with the mil spec trigger. Edited November 18, 2015 by Glockinator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebwake Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 First, make sure your scope is mounted correctly and everything is torqued to spec. Get a good known ammo like hornady match or similar to test. Then start narrowing down the problem. I would take the comp off first, then swap the scope out to a known good scope. Also, not insulting your shooting ability, but I know personally my 1-4's are not great for shooting groups if that is what your nikon is. Swap it for something with about 10 power and a fine crosshair scope. Get the gun bagged in really good and eliminate the human error out as much as possible. Might even swap a lower if all else fails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Many years ago I built a rifle up out of a Colt flat top. I never could get that thing to group at all. I tried several different barrels, different gas blocks different free floats....etc. Finally replaced the upper itself and went back with the first barrel, free float, and gas block and it shot great! Ran into a Hi-Power guy who claimed that the Colt upper was sprung and that it does occasionally happen. I got no idea if that's true or not, but the new upper worked so that's all I can say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glockinator Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 (edited) No offense to the shooting ability but with good bolt rifles I've been known to shoot 1/2 MOA. I'd expect better than the rifle was giving that day at least. To see what it would do I mounted a Nikon 3x9x40 for now. I may go with something else later but that should have been decent enough to wring out the rifle. I was bagging it but had a hard time keeping the grip from hitting the rear bag I was using since I had a couple stacked up. I though about the upper being off. Tried to insert a .001 shim between the flange and upper all the way around with no luck. It looks like it was seated well. I would think if it was not square it would shoot off to the side instead of all over the place. Edited November 19, 2015 by Glockinator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrispies Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 What distance are you testing it at? Personally, when I shoot 200 and 300 yard groups, I get better groups averaged together than when I shoot 50 or 100 yard groups. I suspect that it has something to do with scope parallax but I'm not sure. I have noticed it consistently across platforms, so I like to do accuracy testing at 200. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louu Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Do you know about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glockinator Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 jkrispies, Testing at 100 yards. Louu, Yes 90 degrees is how I torqued the barrel nut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamikaze1a Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 Have you tried a few groups with no comp? I had a rifle that grouped 2-3" no matter what I tried. I finally removed the comp and shot it bare with instant improvement. I mounted a different comp and I maintained the 1MOA groups. The original comp did not display any problems and no strikes but the group tightened up once I took off that comp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glockinator Posted November 21, 2015 Author Share Posted November 21, 2015 Just got back from the range. Tried it with no muzzle device. Swapped out to a different scope. Nothing I did changed anything. I was getting about 5 inch groups at 50 yards from a barrel that is guaranteed 1 moa. This is frustrating. I'm guessing it has to be a bad barrel? I did notice rounds once chambered had to be assisted out of the chamber by tapping the but on the bench. Could a tight 223 Wylde chamber be causing this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrispies Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 (edited) Just got back from the range. Tried it with no muzzle device. Swapped out to a different scope. Nothing I did changed anything. I was getting about 5 inch groups at 50 yards from a barrel that is guaranteed 1 moa. This is frustrating. I'm guessing it has to be a bad barrel? I did notice rounds once chambered had to be assisted out of the chamber by tapping the but on the bench. Could a tight 223 Wylde chamber be causing this? If anything, I'd think a tighter chamber would improve accuracy. Sounds to me like your barrel might be overbored or some other issue. If the muzzle device is off, maybe mic your bore? 5 inches at 50 yards is unsafe. At 400 yards you'd be hitting random objects. Edited November 21, 2015 by jkrispies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebwake Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Ive never had to mortar an in spec round out of a chamber. Ever. Thats crazy. Are you sure its not some random chamber? Are your bullets loaded super long? Never the less id say your barrel is bad. Chamber, throat or something. Sent from my SM-G860P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebwake Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Was this with the raineer barrel of the original one? Sent from my SM-G860P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgj3 Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Is it a 300Blackout barrel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrispies Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 (edited) Is it a 300Blackout barrel?I had that thought too but I think the brass would be mangled after it's ejected.Edit to add: I double checked and .223 won't feed into a 300 blackout barrel (didn't make sense to me that it would) but I'm not sure about other chamberings in something like 6.5, etc. Try mic'ing the case mouths of your ejected brass to see if they're stretching wider than typical spent .223. Edited November 22, 2015 by jkrispies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biglou13 Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 (edited) im following , anxiously, this thread i had similar issues a few years ago.... i ended up moth balling it.... yesterday dusted it off and now its grouping @25 only thing new is comp/break was bird cage.. (shaking my head) white oak barrel grabbing at straws here..... right twist rate for for bullet? heating upper??? is this where misalignment is? inconsistent bolt lock up? have you tried different bolt? have you checked bolt for other issues?/timing issues? are you shooting hand loads? have you checked for inconsistent powder charges? have you shot same ammo in different gun? have you remeasured cartridge oal after chambering? how much will +- poundage on barrel nut change things ? Edited November 22, 2015 by biglou13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glockinator Posted November 22, 2015 Author Share Posted November 22, 2015 (edited) Ive never had to mortar an in spec round out of a chamber. Ever. Thats crazy. Are you sure its not some random chamber? Are your bullets loaded super long? Never the less id say your barrel is bad. Chamber, throat or something. Sent from my SM-G860P using Tapatalk Sure seems like a 223 chamber from what I can tell. Was this with the raineer barrel of the original one? Sent from my SM-G860P using Tapatalk Ranier barrel the last two weekends. Original no name barrel seemed to group more uniform but still 5 inches. Is it a 300Blackout barrel? Most definitely marked 223 Wylde. im following , anxiously, this thread i had similar issues a few years ago.... i ended up moth balling it.... yesterday dusted it off and now its grouping @25 only thing new is comp/break was bird cage.. (shaking my head) white oak barrel grabbing at straws here..... right twist rate for for bullet? heating upper??? is this where misalignment is? inconsistent bolt lock up? have you tried different bolt? have you checked bolt for other issues?/timing issues? are you shooting hand loads? have you checked for inconsistent powder charges? have you shot same ammo in different gun? have you remeasured cartridge oal after chambering? how much will +- poundage on barrel nut change things ? 1 in 8 twist tried 55 grain 62 grain and 77 grain. All those should be in the range this twist should handle with aplomb. Heated the upper to get the barrel to fit if that is what you are referring to? Most definitely a tight fit in the upper receiver. Only one bolt so far. From my talks with Rainier that should not make a big difference like this. Hand loads and factory show similar results. OAL after cambering seems to be identical even on rounds that had to be assisted out. First try with the Rainier barrel was with 30 pounds on the nose since it hit perfectly on a gas tube hole. Didn't try for more on the first go round since the threads were already seated in with the first barrel. Before today I went back and torqued to 30 pounds and then to the next hole. Didn't go over 80 but was most definitely over 30. Even ruled out the trigger by going to a CMC 3.5 pound trigger. Just to cure the mental side of things added a o-ring on the pivot post to tighten up the slack (mostly between the ears). I'm confounded, Both scopes had enough magnification to make sure the cross hairs are centered in a small aiming point till the trigger breaks. The recoil only moves the gun a small amount so I can't quite watch the impact on the target. But it will put some right in there and throw some ~3 inches away high or low mostly right than left. At least left was smaller but that may be a artifact of trying to precisely dial in a scope when the group varies so much. Edited November 22, 2015 by Glockinator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrispies Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 If both barrels grouped about the same, then that rules out the barrel. Try the lower on a differnent upper and see if that affects the groups. (Not sure why it would necessarilly, but it's worth a try.) After that, I'd swap out bolt carrier groups and then bolts. I'm starting think that maybe it's a bad bolt with inconsistent lock up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glockinator Posted November 22, 2015 Author Share Posted November 22, 2015 Only upper and assembled lower I have access to right now. No other bolts to try, but I discussed that with Rainier and they do not seem to think it's a problem. I'm thinking I am going to send this barrel back for them to look over. If the one they send back does not behave maybe I'll buy another bolt. I'm going to need a second one anyway for another build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biglou13 Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Thinking out loud. If you had to heat upper..... may be start of problem. Someeting sounds loose/ inconsistent. Wouldn't lock up issues show more vertical stringing? How does it shoot with iron sights? Is there public range near you... Trade out bolt. Trade out lower. Have someone else shoot it. How does bolt fit to barrel? A little difficult wit assembled ... Did you dry fit before assembly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdcguns Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 I would try a new upper receiver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Hmmmm...... yeah, around the 5th post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdcguns Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Yeah I saw that, but it seems like nobody else did. Figured I should reiterate that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmshozer1 Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Sounds like a crown problem. I have had known barrels arrive with bad crowns. Cleaned them up and the problem went away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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