DQ's in Steel Challenge

[ZackJones]

Let's talk about DQ's in steel challenge - not tales of how you or someone you know was DQ'd but how they should be handled.

In EzSteel you set up an event and within that event you have matches (Main, Rimfire Pistol and Rimfire Rifle).

Per rule 8.1 a person who has been disqualified may not shoot during the remainder of the event.

Consider your local monthly match (which is actually an event) and you're shooting Open (main match) and RFPO (rimfire pistol match). Typically we shoot the two guns at the same time. Now suppose you accidentally drop your RFPO gun while removing it from the case. Under Rule 8.2.1.2 you're automatically DQ'd from the event. This means you can't complete the match with your open gun.

What are your thoughts on this? Is this the right way to handle it? I'm inclined to think it would be better if instead of a DQ being event that it should be a match DQ instead. This would permit the shooter to continue shooting the other gun in the match. I can understand there would be concerns after a shooter DQ's. Is his mind still in the game, etc. I understand this can be avoided by shooting all stages with one gun and then going back through and shooting with the second gun but really, who has the time to do that at a match?

[scottlep]

Let's talk about DQ's in steel challenge - not tales of how you or someone you know was DQ'd but how they should be handled.

In EzSteel you set up an event and within that event you have matches (Main, Rimfire Pistol and Rimfire Rifle).

Per rule 8.1 a person who has been disqualified may not shoot during the remainder of the event.

Consider your local monthly match (which is actually an event) and you're shooting Open (main match) and RFPO (rimfire pistol match). Typically we shoot the two guns at the same time. Now suppose you accidentally drop your RFPO gun while removing it from the case. Under Rule 8.2.1.2 you're automatically DQ'd from the event. This means you can't complete the match with your open gun.

What are your thoughts on this? Is this the right way to handle it? I'm inclined to think it would be better if instead of a DQ being event that it should be a match DQ instead. This would permit the shooter to continue shooting the other gun in the match. I can understand there would be concerns after a shooter DQ's. Is his mind still in the game, etc. I understand this can be avoided by shooting all stages with one gun and then going back through and shooting with the second gun but really, who has the time to do that at a match?

A DQ should send you home or stop you from shooting for that day no matter how many divisions you are shooting. If a person is DQ'd in one division, but allowed to continue shooting a different division they aren't really learning anything. The rule book glossary even says "DQ – A competitor who commits a safety infraction or any prohibited activity during a Steel Challenge event, will be disqualified from that event, and will be prohibited from attempting any remaining courses of fire in that match."

Now, if you read deeper into that definition it says event, which might even lead someone to believe that if it is a multiple day event that the shooter would be DQ for the entire event, meaning they cannot shoot the following day, or any other day of the event.

Needs clarification in my opinion.

Edited November 17, 2015 by scottlep

[ZackJones]

Now, if you read deeper into that definition it says event, which might even lead someone to believe that if it is a multiple day event that the shooter would be DQ for the entire event, meaning they cannot shoot the following day, or any other day of the event.

Per rule 8.1 DQ's are for the event so if you are on day 1 of a 3 day event and DQ then you are done for the entire event. On the other hand if you DQ on day 2 of the 3 day event your scores from day 1 stand. This is one reason why I would like to see the rule changed to be a match DQ. It would really suck to travel to say your big match or the WSSC and DQ on day one and be completely done.

[kend]

The shooter is DQ'ed not the gun because it didn't do anything wrong. If you spend the money to travel to a big match and DQ then hopefully that will reinforce the lesson and you'll learn from it before somebody gets hurt, if you don't then your hobby just got a little more expensive for you. I know shooters that have been doing this for a number of years and have never DQ'ed but I also know a couple that have DQ'ed several times, why they keep doing the same thing over and over I'll never know but it happens. Let's not try to read too deep or interpret things that aren't there, it's been like this since the early days for a reason. I'm not saying we should never change anything but this is a safety issue and it's there to keep us from getting hurt.

[ZackJones]

You make some valid points. Safety for all shooters is paramount.

[BeerBaron]

once you are dq'd you are gone. For one thing if a shooter was DQ'd in metallic sight division and then continued shooting open and during that attempt shot himself drawing from the holster some serious questions would have to be asked as to why a shooter that had earlier committed a safety violation was allowed to continue shooting another division.

Yes it sucks if you travel to a big match and get dq'd. but that is totally on the shoulders of the shooter as an individual. not on the rules or on the RO.

it's the same in IPSC/USPSA. people travel overseas to shoot. Imagine going half way around the world for a level 3 or level 4 match, spending $5,000 and get DQ on the 2nd day of a 4 day match? it happens plenty of times. In that case none of your scores stand, all scores for any stages shot up to that point are wiped. It's tough medicine to take but these are shooting sports after all. Safety is (and has to be) the absolute number 1 concern. If it were not these shooting sports simply would not last in the current political/legislative environment.

[Nimitz]

The circumstances surrounding a competitior's attendance at a match cannot have any bearing on the rules surrounding a DQ or you will compromise the entire set of rules ....

A clarification for how to handle a shooter who completes the rimfire match on day one and gets DQed in open on day 2 needs to happen ...

Edited November 18, 2015 by Nimitz

[Tom E]

A clarification for how to handle a shooter who completes the rimfire match on day one and gets DQed in open on day 2 needs to happen ...

8.1 deals with this, the "completed match scores will still count".

I think the glossary needs editing to better define "event" and "match". Looking at how the terms are used in context, "matches" are "contests" occuring within "events".

My feelings are you should only be DQed from the "match" you commited the infraction in. If you're shooting Open and Production (as an example), two "matches" in and "event", if you commit a DQ infraction in Open you are only DQed in Open. Punishment fitting the crime. You commited no infraction in Production.

It's a tough call as to which way to go.

One other thing: 8.2.1.7 “Finger on the trigger during reload, unloading,

loading or during remedial action.

How often do you see this dealt with with a warning, "Finger!!!", rather than an automatic DQ? I know i'm guilty of just warning as an RO unless it's repeated.

[ZackJones]

I think the glossary needs editing to better define "event" and "match". Looking at how the terms are used in context, "matches" are "contests" occuring within "events".

Agreed and that's in my list of notes for things to discuss with Troy. I think the glossary needs to be expanded quite a bit. I don't know if it'll be accepted but I'm also looking at adding notes/paragraphs in the rules on how to handle things in PractiScore such as recording DNF's when there's a mechanical failure, etc.

I'm really torn on the whole DQ thing. I can see both sides of the coin.

[scottlep]

A clarification for how to handle a shooter who completes the rimfire match on day one and gets DQed in open on day 2 needs to happen ...

8.1 deals with this, the "completed match scores will still count".

I think the glossary needs editing to better define "event" and "match". Looking at how the terms are used in context, "matches" are "contests" occuring within "events".

My feelings are you should only be DQed from the "match" you commited the infraction in. If you're shooting Open and Production (as an example), two "matches" in and "event", if you commit a DQ infraction in Open you are only DQed in Open. Punishment fitting the crime. You commited no infraction in Production.

It's a tough call as to which way to go.

One other thing: 8.2.1.7 “Finger on the trigger during reload, unloading,

loading or during remedial action.

How often do you see this dealt with with a warning, "Finger!!!", rather than an automatic DQ? I know i'm guilty of just warning as an RO unless it's repeated.

So if someone is DQ'd in one division, and is allowed to continue shooting in another division and subsequently commits yet another DQ-able offense that possibly results in someone getting hurt, how would you feel about that? How are they learning anything from the first DQ if they are allowed to stay and keep shooting? In that case it is really just a slap on the wrist and hasn't taught them anything. A DQ is to keep everyone safe. It should also be a learning experience for the shooter that was DQ'd and a deterrent to keep them from making the same or similar mistake in the future. I already stated my opinion above, but they should be sent home for the day and allowed time to think about why they were DQ'd and how to avoid it in the future. But like I also said above, it all needs clarification.

[pmd]

I'll weigh in my 2 cents..

If there is an event that has multiple matches and side matches. I feel that each match or side match should be handled individually.

As Tom E. wrote above:

"My feelings are you should only be DQed from the "match" you commited the infraction in. If you're shooting Open and Production (as an example), two "matches" in and "event", if you commit a DQ infraction in Open you are only DQed in Open. Punishment fitting the crime. You commited no infraction in Production. "

I know other shooting venues have handled it that way - I have been to a ProAm match where a competitor DQ'd in the Open match and was allowed to shoot the Limited match the following day.

As far as Event Disqualifications - I feel that "Unsportsmanlike Conduct" (USPSA 10.6) and "Prohibited Substances" (USPSA 10.7) should get one DQ'd from the entire event.

[ZackJones]

As far as Event Disqualifications - I feel that "Unsportsmanlike Conduct" (USPSA 10.6) and "Prohibited Substances" (USPSA 10.7) should get one DQ'd from the entire event.

Those are covered by 8.3.1 and 8.3.2, respectively. What's interesting though is these two items are listed as a match DQ and not event DQ. IMO these should be event DQ's.

[Tom E]

Those are covered by 8.3.1 and 8.3.2, respectively. What's interesting though is these two items are listed as a match DQ and not event DQ. IMO these should be event DQ's.

Yes, the rulebook wording does need some editing so the terms are used consistently.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Tom E

[Nimitz]

The problem with a match DQ vice an event DQ is that DQs are overridingly handed out for safety violations, which I don't think should be equated to specific divisions ... "Yeah I know he committed a safety violation with his open gun so that's a DQ but he'll probably be safe with his rimfire gun so we'll let him continue to shoot that." .... Is this the kind of conversation you want to hear from a MD?

[PatriotMRD]

I gotta go with Nimitz on this one. It doesn't matter how far you traveled or how much you spent to get there a DQ means you are done. Doesn't matter if it's day 1 or day 6.

I can see if you DQ on day 2 in Open, Limited, Production, etc. but, you completed Rimfire on day 1, letting the completed Rimfire scores stand. Once you DQ you are out and any incomplete matches are wiped out.

[ZackJones]

I can see if you DQ on day 2 in Open, Limited, Production, etc. but, you completed Rimfire on day 1, letting the completed Rimfire scores stand. Once you DQ you are out and any incomplete matches are wiped out.

That's how it works now. If you complete a match (rimfire in this case) and then DQ shooting the main match your rimfire scores stand.

The rules need to be consistent. If safety violations are an automatic event DQ then ALL DQ's should be event DQ's. That's something I've added to my list of topics to discuss with Troy.

[Tom E]

That's how it works now. If you complete a match (rimfire in this case) and then DQ shooting the main match your rimfire scores stand.

The rules need to be consistent. If safety violations are an automatic event DQ then ALL DQ's should be event DQ's. That's something I've added to my list of topics to discuss with Troy.

Seems very wrong to DQ someone in a previously completed match for a subsequent infraction in another match.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Tom E

[motosapiens]

The way I would treat it is different divisions on the same day are the same match. DQ in one means you are done shooting both. (this actually happened to me in a uspsa-style practice match when I was shooting rimfire and centerfire).

If the divisions are shot on different days, they are a separate match, like back to back nationals. DQ on day 1 match, come back and shoot the next match on day 2.

I don't think I've had anyone shooting 2 guns at our weekly steel match dq yet, but when it happens, it will be for all divisions and that individual will be done shooting for that match.

Edited November 20, 2015 by motosapiens

[Tom E]

The way I would treat it is different divisions on the same day are the same match. DQ in one means you are done shooting both. (this actually happened to me in a uspsa-style practice match when I was shooting rimfire and centerfire).

If the divisions are shot on different days, they are a separate match, like back to back nationals. DQ on day 1 match, come back and shoot the next match on day 2.

I don't think I've had anyone shooting 2 guns at our weekly steel match dq yet, but when it happens, it will be for all divisions and that individual will be done shooting for that match.

This is a perfect example of lack of clarity in what an "event" and a "match" is in the rule book. I'm assuming "matches" occur within "events". That needs to be better defined.

Then you get into what a DQ entails. Are you just DQed in the "match" you incur the infraction in? Or are you "tarred with the same stick" in another "match" you're shooting? Are you retro-actively DQed in previous "matches"? That's where this is going...

My opinion is that the punishment (DQ) applies only to the "match" in which it occurred.

Do more and then you have to decide how far the punishment is applied. Same day "matches"? Previous "matches"? Previous "events"? Last yrs "event"? Where do we say "this is enough"?

Edited November 20, 2015 by Tom E

[Nimitz]

While you can always add more clarification I actually think the definitions of 'match' and 'event' are currently pretty clear ... Look at the official score posted on the SCSA website for any sanctioned event and you always see the individual matches within a single event posted : "main match", "rimfire pistol match" and "rimfire rifle match".

However, I do think there needs to be a discussion about if a DQ is retroactive to any match you have already finished on a prior day. Personally I believe that once you complete a match that score stands no matter what you may or may not do in the future. If however, you are shooting 2 matches in one day like a lot of people (myself included) do and you DQ then you are done in both.

Allowing retroactive match DQs would be similar to saying ... "Hey, I know we're currently shooting stage 4 but I think you really did break the 180 back on stage 1 so I'm going to DQ you now ..."

Edited November 20, 2015 by Nimitz

[DougCarden]

Speaking as someone who has been the match director of National and state level steel matches......and watching this thread.....How about we work on getting all Match staff and directors to just follow the rule book we have now. I have seen more heartburn from well meaning but ill advised ROs at matches not knowing the rules. Most of the time the Match Director will side with his team, good bad or indifferent but it is what it is.

I think if we had everyone following the rules we currently have there would be less issues.

As for the OP question. If you are shooting a three day match and complete day one shooting rimfire, then have a DQ on the second day....You should be done for that day and eat the DQ for that event. If you are scheduled for a third separate match the next day, then I have no problem with the shooter shooting the third day.

That is how it has always been done at the SC, and I see no reason to change what works.

If you are shooting two guns at the same match and DQ then you are done for the day. Pretty simple....

My .02 centavos.....

DougC

[ZackJones]

However, I do think there needs to be a discussion about if a DQ is retroactive to any match you have already finished on a prior day. Personally I believe that once you complete a match that score stands no matter what you may or may not do in the future. If however, you are shooting 2 matches in one day like a lot of people (myself included) do and you DQ then you are done in both.

To me this point is perfectly clear in the rule book. DQ's are not retroactive. If you complete a match within an event the score stands regardless of what happens later that day, the next day, etc. Rule 8.1 covers this:

Persons who have been disqualified may not shoot during the remainder of the event. However, completed match scores will still count. (For example, if a person

shoots a complete score in “Revolver” then disqualifies while shooting “Single Stack” that competitor’s “Revolver” score still stands.)

Edited November 20, 2015 by ZackJones

[motosapiens]

The way I would treat it is different divisions on the same day are the same match. DQ in one means you are done shooting both. (this actually happened to me in a uspsa-style practice match when I was shooting rimfire and centerfire).

If the divisions are shot on different days, they are a separate match, like back to back nationals. DQ on day 1 match, come back and shoot the next match on day 2.

I don't think I've had anyone shooting 2 guns at our weekly steel match dq yet, but when it happens, it will be for all divisions and that individual will be done shooting for that match.

This is a perfect example of lack of clarity in what an "event" and a "match" is in the rule book. I'm assuming "matches" occur within "events". That needs to be better defined.

Then you get into what a DQ entails. Are you just DQed in the "match" you incur the infraction in? Or are you "tarred with the same stick" in another "match" you're shooting? Are you retro-actively DQed in previous "matches"? That's where this is going...

My opinion is that the punishment (DQ) applies only to the "match" in which it occurred.

Do more and then you have to decide how far the punishment is applied. Same day "matches"? Previous "matches"? Previous "events"? Last yrs "event"? Where do we say "this is enough"?

those are reasonable points. I've never actually looked at the steel challenge rulebook, and we just run strictly by uspsa rules. Those rules make it clear that dq in a side match after the main match does not affect main match scores.

It does seem pretty clear to me tho what a match is and what an event is. If i only publish one set of results for various divisions, then it's all the same match. (like the 2014 uspsa nationals). If I publish 2 separate sets of results, then it's two different matches (like the 2013 backtoback nationals).

[Nimitz]

Except that's not how Sanctioned steel challenge matches are run ... That's why you need to be following the appropriate rules ... And in steel challenge there can be up to 3 different matches in a single event: the main match (all centerfire divisions are here), the rimfire pistol match (2 divisions) and the rimfire rifle match (also 2 divisions). And on occasion a side match (like for shotgun or something else). In USPSA there is typically just 1 match in an event with the different divisions

[DougCarden]

Hence, ergo.....sigh......<smacks head icon>. Steel Challenge is not USPSA. It is a sanctioned match administrated by USPSA. It is a different match completely. I, for one, am glad Zack is taking the Bull by the horns to clarify things for Match management. I noticed last weekend while running a match that Practiscore had 5 runs for Outer Limits in stead of 4. We went ahead and shot 5 because I could not find a way to throw one out....It will get fixed but it is one of those things that have to get tweaked.

DougC