selecw Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 I'm getting ready to shoot my Witness Gold Team in Open (I shoot Limited now) and have been experimenting with various loads. At 15 yards the dot is typically jumping from the center of the lower A to "shoulder" level. Is this "flat"? The dot resettles on the center, so the target ends up being a fist sized hole. Looking at various YouTube videos, its seems to be pretty typical of an Open gun, but I'd like to heart some views. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Flat is an odd thing. Some say their guns run flat when they really don't and some have really flat guns that they keep changing parts and loads because they think the gun isn't flat. Go figure. There is a thread already that has a bunch of info. I think it's called how flat is flat? Just search for flat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open1215 Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Good stuff too under objective comp testing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selecw Posted November 5, 2015 Author Share Posted November 5, 2015 I see this: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=194707&hl=flat%20shooting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain037 Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Start with the dot staying in the glass during recoil and go from there. That's the beginning of flat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 The beginning of flat Larry? Are you saying you shoot an Open gun where the dot doesn't leave the glass? If so I'd love to see pictures/videos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selecw Posted November 5, 2015 Author Share Posted November 5, 2015 (edited) I'm at that point. Which is good. I see the dot moving to the shoulder at 1 o clock. Or at least I don't "think" I see it moving outside the glass. I happens pretty fast, Edited November 5, 2015 by selecw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selecw Posted November 5, 2015 Author Share Posted November 5, 2015 I will try and get video. I don't have a hat mounted go pro, so it may be a little challenging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 I've just gotten my methodology dialed in with my slow mo videos shooting 720p at 240fps and I can almost guarantee your dot leaves the glass when shooting major PF ammo from a 9mm V12 GT. I have plans to post some in depth comp comparisons within the next few months and I'll show you what I'm talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.Elliott Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 I've shot a lot of Open guns and I honestly don't think I've ever seen one that completely keeps the dot in the glass during recoil. I think some are definitely "flatter" than others, but I also think that the percieved flatness largely relates to how fast the dot lifts and returns and whether or not it returns to neutral. Also, there are just so many variables in play that it is difficult to get any real measure beyond that which is subjective. The real test is what the timer says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnit Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 I agree with Sarge and R.Elliot's observations, and also that everyone perceives recoil differently. And the strong shooters have figured out the timing and grip on there personal guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctay Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 I have two 2011 open guns and the dot does not leave the glass on either. At least not that I can perceive. They do little bounces up to the top 1/4 then come back to the place they started. I personally don't think "flat" is as important as consistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzt Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Well, the dot in my FFIII does not leave the glass if my grip is tight. I was just watching two open shooters at the last match. One was a GM with a custom 2011. I'd definitely say his gun shot flat. There was very little muzzle rise. You could see that he timed the dot, and he did shoot all snake eyes. The second was one of the S&W team shooters. He was running a tricked out M&P with a brass magwell, Tungsten guide rod and a custom comp. His gun did not rise one iota. I'm serious. I talked to him about it. He said he doesn't use a death grip, but his grip is strong. His load was 124gr over 6.6gr WAC. Didn't ask about the primer, and I forgot what brand of bullet. He just has everything dialed in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selecw Posted November 5, 2015 Author Share Posted November 5, 2015 (edited) Can anyone post a youtube video of an Open gun that doesn't rise at all? I suggest looking at the red dot to assess whether its rising, not the muzzle. Let's take Chris Tilley as an example - you can clearly see here that his red dot tilts up while he is firing: Edited November 5, 2015 by selecw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garmil Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Pretty flat from both. The super slow mo at about 40 seconds I could believe the dot staying in the glass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selecw Posted November 6, 2015 Author Share Posted November 6, 2015 Yes. I can believe that. Even here though we can see both guns/dots moving up (very slightly). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiggMike Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Pretty flat from both. The super slow mo at about 40 seconds I could believe the dot staying in the glass. Don't forget they are shooting steel loads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selecw Posted November 6, 2015 Author Share Posted November 6, 2015 (edited) I know nothing about steel matches. Tilley shoots USPSA 9mm major, so are steel loads more or less hot than a 165PF? Edited November 6, 2015 by selecw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garmil Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 https://youtu.be/rsJoiA3fyIY Pretty flat from both. The super slow mo at about 40 seconds I could believe the dot staying in the glass. Don't forget they are shooting steel loads. Yes they are. From what I've seen the majority here think major loads shoot flatter than minor anyway though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 (edited) Full speed video is very deceiving, take a look at this video: That same gun at 240fps: Edited November 6, 2015 by kneelingatlas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Before I figured out how to set up the camera I was filming at 80fps (standard video is 24fps) and the gun cycles in just a few frames. The reason the gun looks dead flat in full speed video is that the camera might only catch one or two frames of the muzzle rising and each frame only lasts 0.04 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 This is the most impressive video I've seen and the dot still leaves the glass: https://youtu.be/arSD8glI4jU I don't know the full details of the gun but it's a 38 super with three hybrid holes shooting N105 under 121s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.Elliott Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 (edited) I've just gotten my methodology dialed in with my slow mo videos shooting 720p at 240fps and I can almost guarantee your dot leaves the glass when shooting major PF ammo from a 9mm V12 GT. I have plans to post some in depth comp comparisons within the next few months and I'll show you what I'm talking about. Strongly agree. The dot is leaving the glass; the shooter just isn't seeing it happen. All the guns in that speed shooter compilation posted above are absolutely leaving the glass. I did own two gold team v12's in 37 super. They were among the flattest guns I've shot, but the dot still left the glass. For the record, I also have arms like an ape and a pretty serious grip. Edited November 6, 2015 by R.Elliott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Here's R.Elliott's fire breathing Tanfo loaded with over 12 grains of lil gun: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open1215 Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Holy poo! 12g under what? 115 or 124? Did it make major? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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