Problem with Apex RAM on M&P Pro

[Newguy]

I'm wondering if anyone else has had a problem with the Apex RAM and the trigger not resetting.

I have the Apex competition kit--aluminum trigger, sear, striker, RAM and springs. The trigger return spring is the original for a 3 1/2 lb pull.

During a match, I thought I might have what Apex calls 'sear flutter' (no striker hit on the primer). I noticed this only happens with double taps/rapd shooting. At first, I thought it might be a one-time occurence, but then it started happening more often. I called Apex and they said it was the sear spring. I wasn't convinced so I started backward by taking out the RAM. The problem was suddenly solved.

After sending some photos to Apex, I was sent the 'right' blue RAM spring. Tried it out today and at the 7th or 8th rapid shooting string the same thing happened--no primer strike. Took out the RAM and the gun runs fine.

Apex wants me to take the gun apart and photograph most of the internal parts from various angles. I'm not excited about the time and effort this will take.

Has anyone had a similar problem with the RAM? If so, how did you resolve it?

[Bob Hostetter]

I have been shooting the M&P for about 2 years now and have the same problem. It happens rarely and only during very fast splits. I played with everything, spoke with Apex about and finally decided I was short stroking the trigger. I used to shoot only 1911's with very short reset and when pushing very hard with the M&P I wasn't allowing it to reset. After taking a lot of the reset distance out of the trigger by modifying the trigger and trigger bar and going back to the stock trigger return spring I am getting a faster and shorter reset which has eliminated the problem at least for the last year.

[Newguy]

Thanks, Bob. How did you modify the trigger and trigger bar? I'm using the stock return spring on the trigger. Today I had the same problem--this time with the RAM out.

[Flash74]

If you have an older M&P then the spring under the sear is small (1/16"). S&W changed to a larger spring in later models of the M&P to prevent this sear flutter. Apex mentions this in all of their replacement trigger videos and recommends getting a new sear block that has the larger hole for the larger spring. You can get the blocks at Brownells or you can send your pistol to S&W and they will replace the block.

The Ram only provides and audible click when resetting your trigger. I don't think it is causing the trigger to not reset.

[echang86]

I have a M&P9L with the Apex Forward Set Sear kit and Apex RAM installed. This gun also has one of the original smaller sear springs and sear block. I went 1500 rounds without cleaning before I experienced this issue as well. But instead my problem wasn't discriminate to how fast I was shooting. Slow fire or double taps, the sear never reset after shots. I ended up cleaning the handgun and I don't have this problem anymore.

[Fried Chicken Blowout]

If you have the FSS kit you need the larger spring sear block. I did several when Apex was drilling them several years ago. They stopped that when the new sear blocks became easier to buy and then I bought a few of them to swap out. I never ran the small spring sear block with any of the kit installs I did. For myself and others I've done about a dozen FSS installs. I can tell you if you're running a true "competition" sear spring in the larger sear block that was not meant for the FSS kit you will get sear flutter and dead triggers as a result. If you run the actual "competition" trigger return spring that is sold as a stand alone item or with the non-FSS competition kit for the factory trigger shoe, it's too light for the FSS trigger shoe and the drag of the RAM. You need to run the FSS sear spring provided with the kit OR you can run the factory sear spring from the larger sear block which is what I've done with a few of them. You also need to run one of the provided FSS trigger return springs OR the factory spring. With the factory trigger return and sear spring you can get about a 2.5# pull and it works 100% of the time, but I found it a little mushy for me. I run the FSS sear and heavy trigger return spring from the kit which gets me a solid feeling trigger in the 4.25 - 4.5# range. But I also use the Apex striker spring and everything is polished. Apex has also changed the springs they provide with the FSS kits over the years. They didn't use to come with two trigger return springs and now they do.

But back to you question, I've never had an issue with the RAM as long as you use the correct FSS spring for the RAM. I just outlined the other items above incase you can pick something out that you're maybe not thinking of. What's your current trigger pull with the gun as-is with the issues going on?

Also a warning to mucking around with too light of a trigger on these, I did have an M&P40 Pro go full auto on me when I had messed with things to such a point that I got the pull below 2#. Excessive polishing of parts and too light of springs was at fault.

[Acclaym]

I had the same problem. Tried several of the suggested fixes with no luck until I bought a new trigger bar. Installed and never had the problem again.

[Fried Chicken Blowout]

Good point on the trigger bar. If your trigger bar loop is open too much it makes it harder for the sear to reset. If that's the issue, closing the loop some, which will result in increased pre-travel, but will fix the non-reset issue.

[Newguy]

Thanks, everyone. It wasn't the RAM after all. I spoke with Apex again and this time they suggested I close the trigger bar loop a little. I closed it a tiny bit and so far it seems to work fine. Put around 20 rounds of rapid fire through the gun and it reset every time. Fingers crossed.

[JohnRodriguez]

I thought that the RAM was needed if you experienced the dead trigger, won't contact the sear at all. I had it happen on my mp9. my 9L has never experienced it. my 9 is basically stock which is also my glove box gun. My 9L is a full Limited division gun with the apex AEK forward set trigger. if I put my 9 slide on the 9L frame, I will get what you are describing above. my understanding is that the timing from the sear to the firing pin block is not right.

[pc13]

My trigger bar loop is set at factory at .11 Apex suggested .16 and that's what I have mine set to for about 5k rounds. I have the Ram installed with the Flat face trigger. I did experience light primer strikes with Apex set up so I use the Factory striker spring and Winchester Primers.

[e5gator]

I could not get the RAM to work, contacted apex and they said it must be something I'm doing wrong, I'm a M&P armorer with years of experience working on this gun. it just wouldn't work

[redial]

I've had the dead-trigger issue with several earlier M&Ps, all of which were fixed by installing the new, larger sear spring. All of mine are of the older design so I don't know about the newer M&Ps. I have RAMs in all as well.

You must enlarge the hole the spring sits in to accommodate the bigger spring but that's the only hard part of the switch.

Mark

[Steve O'Connell]

So, I have a Pro with the Apex Flat Front trigger set up for competition. I have the RAM installed. I am beginning to experience the dreaded "dead trigger", i.e., new round chambers but no striker reset. For background, I have fired maybe 500-750 rounds of 115gr ammo with no trouble. I switched to 147gr because I prefer the recoil "push" vs. the 115gr "snap". With 1000fps Federal 147gr factory loads the pistol operated fine. The dead trigger did not manifest until I used some loads down closer to 900-950fps such as the Freedom 147 hollow point. My gun was purchased new in March of 2015 and does have the larger sear spring and plunger.

Any thoughts on fixing this? I will try some 115gr again to see if the trouble is bullet weight-related or some wear-in with the pistol. I seem to recall reading that the slide to frame fit can contribute to the development of sear issues.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Steve O'Connell

[Bkreutz]

So, I have a Pro with the Apex Flat Front trigger set up for competition. I have the RAM installed. I am beginning to experience the dreaded "dead trigger", i.e., new round chambers but no striker reset. For background, I have fired maybe 500-750 rounds of 115gr ammo with no trouble. I switched to 147gr because I prefer the recoil "push" vs. the 115gr "snap". With 1000fps Federal 147gr factory loads the pistol operated fine. The dead trigger did not manifest until I used some loads down closer to 900-950fps such as the Freedom 147 hollow point. My gun was purchased new in March of 2015 and does have the larger sear spring and plunger.

Any thoughts on fixing this? I will try some 115gr again to see if the trouble is bullet weight-related or some wear-in with the pistol. I seem to recall reading that the slide to frame fit can contribute to the development of sear issues.

Try changing the striker. I had a dead trigger situation once and traced it to a worn striker that was riding over the sear as the slide came forward. (I could feel a lip on the edge of the striker where it catches the sear) changed to a new striker and the problem went away. Inspecting that part of the striker is now on my inspection schedule.

[Steve O'Connell]

Interesting, I took a look at the striker and it looks like new. The pistol only has 1,000-1,500 rounds on it.

Thanks though. I'll check my older M&Ps.

[Steve O'Connell]

A little follow-up. I was able to duplicate the failure with 2 different 147fr loads and a fairly light 115gr load. I removed the RAM device and ran the pistol at a class for several hundred rounds and experienced no further "dead trigger" syndrome. Guess I'll leave the RAM out!

[MemphisMechanic]

The RAM is a waste of money and labor anyway. No matter the weapon, you don't feel the click of the reset when shooting, unless you're going slow-fire at the range. During a match or at speed can anyone actually tell me they feel the click?

You simply learn the required trigger finger movement and muscle memory takes care of it.

[wolffy1876]

Picked up one from another forum for free (guy ordered wrong one). Installed it, gun ran fine, dryfire had good audible reset. Live fire never noticed any difference. After 3ish matches, was getting a dead trigger. Took it out, no problems since.