.223 OCW workup - Looks like crap.

[BitchinCamaro]

I tried the OCW method in a bolt-action .308 with 168 SMKs and it was beautiful- most all the groups were already MOA or better so finding the stability node was pretty straightforward.

Trying the same with my AR is giving me an ulcer.

Here are the results with a 55g Hornady FMJ-BT and starting with 23g of TAC at 2.235" COAL.

I was using a 6x power scope at 100 yards because that's all I had available to me. The reticle was a little coarse so I was just trying to line up the horizontal stadia with the all three bulls on a row and then tried to split the individual white box 50/50 with the vertical stadia.

Notes:

*I was shooting prone with bags underneath the forend and buttstock - no magazine and the grip (barely) cleared the ground.

*The shot touching the bull at 23.4 was a called flyer- pulled low.

*The 23.6 outlier was not a called flyer.

*There are only 2 holes for 23.8 because the bullet did not hit the target or the backer. I definitely shot 3 loaded rounds marked 23.8 and I recovered the marked brass. I did not call a flyer for any of the 23.8 rounds, and if I did, it would have been obvious that I pulled the reticle nearly 2 feet off the target and cardboard backer.

*Earlier in the day I shot identical rounds with 24.0g on a 8" shoot-n-see target and I had the edges touching in a vertical string. I don't know what happened here.

Do the 23.6/23.8/24.0 groups have any real data?

Should I try out 22.6 and 22.8?

Is 23.8 an insane scatter-node, or did I have micro-stroke?

Should I pull the 5x20 scope from my .308 and re-do?

Should I remember that this is "just 3gun" and admit that tuning COAL with 23.1g is already going to be overkill for accuracy?

Thanks in advance for any insight you guys may have. I'm new to the OCW method so any pointers would be greatly appreciated.

Edited September 23, 2015 by BitchinCamaro

[TonytheTiger]

When you say "no magazine" do you mean that your single loading them? I don't know how High Power shooters shoot well single loading but my best groups with an AR all come from 7 (or more) rounds in a mag for a five shot group. First one goes at a different target, next five go into a group and the last one gets ejected or shot elsewhere.

Also, I have no idea what your eyesight is like but I know for my eyes (which are pretty decent) and my reticle, with a 6x and average daylight I would have a hard time focusing on the targets your using. For lower powered scopes with non-bullseye reticles I find it really pays to find or make a target that contrasts and works with your equipment.

Then I work really hard to shoot a few good groups and say screw this, I'm going to go do something that doesn't suck because I already know my gun can shoot...

[BitchinCamaro]

Thanks for the input, Tony.

I was single loading them to keep all the marked cases in order...all day...for 3 rounds of OCW load development. It sucked.

My eyesight is pretty terrible. The carnage resulting from me driving without corrective lenses would make headlines.

I'm using these specific targets because that's what the OCW nerds printed up. My eyeballs felt like they were going to fall out of my head after only a few rounds of getting an adequate sight picture.

I'm not really shooting for tight groups per se. I'm trying to use the OCW method because it worked so well in my push-gun. In theory, any of these groups can shrink down to cloverleafs, I'm just trying to find the sequential charges that give the same POI and it's not working out so great.

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/

Right after I posted this thread I loaded up 6 more rounds - 3x 22.6g and 3x 22.8.

I ran to the range and it was full of dudes that just got off of work to sight in their blackpowder rifles.

It was 15 degrees cooler than when I shot earlier in the day, and my barrel was cold, but I was losing light and the range was crowded so I just sent these downrange:

I'm 99% sure I didn't get the loads reversed, but I can't understand why 22.8 has so much spread unless I derped up and mixed up what I was shooting six times in a row.

I was round robin shooting so the pattern *should* be natural.

If I hadn't printed that 22.8 grain group, I would have just settled with 23 grains as my stable load and adjusted seating depth to cloverleaf. But I did print that 22.8 group, and now I want to drink a million beers.

Edited September 23, 2015 by BitchinCamaro

[rjacobs]

55g FMJBT is a garbage bullet for accuracy IMO. I would roll that 23g load and call her a day personally. I dont like messing with OAL after finding a node. Depending on how far you move out, you could drop out of the pressure window of the node. Are your 55g Hornady's cannular or no cannular?

Do load workup with some 75g Hornady BTHP, 77g SMK, or 77g Nosler CC and your groups will shrink considerably.

Edited September 23, 2015 by rjacobs

[BitchinCamaro]

Thanks, rjacobs.

The Hornady's have a cannelure and 2.235" puts the case mouth right on the bottom of it. Again, I'm not really shooting for tight groups with this method.

My plan was to find the OCW stable load first, and then start moving the cannelure deeper into the case until I got consistent .5" groups or better.

I have 77g Nosler Custom Competitions, but I'm trying to simplify my 3Gun ...well, everything.

I've found that I'm just not smart enough under the clock to remember that I have different loads for different distances or target types. I just want a bread n' butter 3gun load but I don't want to shoot hoser paper stages with my fancy bullets either.

Edited September 23, 2015 by BitchinCamaro

[BitchinCamaro]

OK. 999,998 beers to go but I'm already feeling better.

Looking at the targets, it's remarkable that all the lower halves are wildly inconsistent. It may be coincidence, or maybe I just can't adjust for 3 inches of drop with my shooting position.

I'm going to try new huge grid targets tomorrow and try this whole OCW thing one more time. All targets will be in a single horizontal array.

If it doesn't work I'm just going to see what plinks beer cans good at 400 yards.

[Pat Miles]

OK. 999,998 beers to go but I'm already feeling better.

If it doesn't work I'm just going to see what plinks beer cans good at 400 yards.

You should have plenty of beer cans to plink!

[BitchinCamaro]

OK. 999,998 beers to go but I'm already feeling better.

If it doesn't work I'm just going to see what plinks beer cans good at 400 yards.

You should have plenty of beer cans to plink!

That's the plan!

[Religious Shooter]

55g FMJBT is a garbage bullet for accuracy IMO.

+1.

[BitchinCamaro]

55g FMJBT is a garbage bullet for accuracy IMO.

+1.

The initial OCW workup isn't necessarily looking for accuracy.

I agree that the bullet shouldn't be anyone's first choice to split asprins at 200 yards, but that's not exactly what my issue is here.

[Absocold]

Price difference between bulk 55gr FMJ's and match grade 67+gr BTHP's is maybe a nickel per round. Can you get good accuracy from smaller pills? Sure. But maybe your gun just doesn't like them.

I have one AR that's 1/8 twist and should be able to shoot any weight from 55-77gr, but it absolutely hates anything smaller than 67gr and doesn't wake up and start getting serious until I feed it at least 69gr. Making the switch from 55gr to 77gr took the gun from 2+ MOA to 1/2 MOA. Not to mention the benefits of a heavier projectile, especially at longer distances. For me, that nickel is money well spent.

[RDA]

My plan was to find the OCW stable load first, and then start moving the cannelure deeper into the case until I got consistent .5" groups or better.

With the Hornady FMJ 55g, I believe 0.5" groups or better are not going to happen, particularly with any consistency. I have gotten a 0.56 MOA from my PredatOBR at 100 yards, but my average five shot groups is closer to 1.10 MOA.

I also don't feel three shot groups are very helpful, I always shoot five shot groups and even then it can be difficult to do load work-up with an average bullet.

[BitchinCamaro]

With the Hornady FMJ 55g, I believe 0.5" groups or better are not going to happen, particularly with any consistency. I have gotten a 0.56 MOA from my PredatOBR at 100 yards, but my average five shot groups is closer to 1.10 MOA.

I also don't feel three shot groups are very helpful, I always shoot five shot groups and even then it can be difficult to do load work-up with an average bullet.

I totally agree that 3 shot groups aren't especially helpful, but I'm trying to follow the OCW method by the book. I usually shoot 10 round groups. I don't actually believe I'm going to squeeze .5 MOA out of this, but it's my generic starting benchmark for my bolt gun.

Absocold, ultimately price isn't a consideration, but I already have ~50k of the Hornadys (about a $2500 price difference). I already have a load that puts them well beyond XM193 for accuracy, but I just want to optimize my load for varying conditions.

Again, I understand that this bullet isn't going to really give me cloverleafs at the end of the day, but that isn't the objective of the OCW load method. I'm just trying to utilize OCW to compensate for changes in elevation between matches (6000 ft to 3200 ft above sea level), temperature swings (+/- 30 degrees per day here in Utah), and slight variations in powder charge on a progressive press.

My issue here is that the results from the targets seems to almost follow the OCW predictions, but the data (especially for the bottom half targets) looks weird.

Normally, I would have given up already and called BS on OCW, but the results from my bolt action gun were fantastic.

Yes, it's comparing apples and oranges, but I didn't think the results would be this different.

[Absocold]

When a method isn't working out, step back and punt. Go back to your usual method of working up a load.

Maybe the barrel on that gun doesn't whip at a good time for that weight bullet in any of the velocity ranges you're loading them.

Also, are you sure the gun is capable of better accuracy? I've seen more than a couple AR's that for one reason or another might as well be classified as a high velocity shotgun.

[rjacobs]

Thanks, rjacobs.

The Hornady's have a cannelure and 2.235" puts the case mouth right on the bottom of it. Again, I'm not really shooting for tight groups with this method.

My plan was to find the OCW stable load first, and then start moving the cannelure deeper into the case until I got consistent .5" groups or better.

I wouldnt move the cannuler deeper into the case, if anything load further out(closer to the lands) while still maintaining enough bullet in the case. Either way you COULD get into territory where your pressure changes and you move out of the node. I personally wouldnt change the OAL, you could start chasing your tail. I have a love hate with cannular's, I like them for the fact that if you crimp it gives a nice place to crimp and not destroy the jacket, but I dislike them because you are supposed to load the cannular to the case mouth(whether you crimp or not) which can give you a sub optimum OAL.

I guess I have never done an OCW load workup with 55g FMJBT. I simply load to the cannular and jam 25g of H335 in the case and call her a day. If I need anything more accurate I grab a 77g SMK or Nosler CC load and rock that. I dont use 55g FMJBT for anything other than practice and thats usually banging steel, nothing that requires accuracy.

And one thing I do differently with OCW than what Dan Newberry's site recommends is that I shoot all 3-5 rounds at the same time. I feel that you get a little better consistency with barrel temp, wind, etc... if you shoot them all at the same time vs. 1 load here, another load there, the next over here, the next, etc... and then start over... I have never had an issue finding a node shooting all 3-5 of a given load at once. Some guys go real crazy and only shoot one round ever 5 minutes to give their barrel time to cool, me, not so much.

[Kaldor]

55g FMJBT is a garbage bullet for accuracy IMO.

+1.

I call BS on that statement. I consistently shoot right around an inch with Hornady 55gr FMJBTs over 24.5gr of H335 using CCI 400 primers. Bullets are loaded to cannelure depth and light crimped with Lee FCD. Rifle has an 18" Green Mtn 5.56 rifle length gas, so nothing super high priced about the barrel either. I use a cheap Vortex 4-12X44 Crossfire.

Need some specs on your gun. Barrel manufacturer, length, gas system are all pertinent data.

That being said, can you push the FMJBTs harder? I was all over the place under 24gr of H335. Once I got over 24gr my groups tightened up a bunch. At 24.5gr Im seeing no pressure signs. Could possibly go higher, but Im happy with 3/4" 5 shot groups with cheap(er/ish) components. Granted this is not TAC, but you might find yourself with similar results.

And yes, you can buy more expensive bullets which theoretically should shoot better, but why bother? If you can get inch accuracy on a bullet that costs less than $.10 a piece, why wouldnt you? As long you can hit what you need to, and youre confident in it, the 55gr FMJBTs will do the job out to 300 yards. Only once you get past that would I consider using a heavier bullet.

[rjacobs]

55g FMJBT is a garbage bullet for accuracy IMO.

+1.

I call BS on that statement.

55g FMJBT as loaded in M193 is spec'd to maintain 2" radii at 200 yards out of a fixtured barrel. A radii is 3.6" at 100 yards or ~3.6 MOA. Think Mil-Rad or Mil-Dot here.

Can it do better, sure, with load tuning to your gun and a lot of hand working brass. Will it run with something like a 75g BTHP, 77g SMK(or clone) or 75g AMAX, never, or at least not consistently. There is a reason even the military has adopted a 77g SMK round.

I run a CLE spun Krieger 18" SPR barrel. It runs .4-.5's consistently with my 77g SMK load(when I dont yank shots). It runs 55g FMJBT at around 1.5"-2" with maybe some sub 1.5" groups based on pure luck.

If got consistent 1-1.5" groups with 55g FMJBT I would be happy. Consistency is where I am at, not "Well I shot a .5" 3 shot group using M193 one time in the 35k rounds I have fired".

[Kaldor]

55g FMJBT is a garbage bullet for accuracy IMO.

+1.

I call BS on that statement.

55g FMJBT as loaded in M193 is spec'd to maintain 2" radii at 200 yards out of a fixtured barrel. A radii is 3.6" at 100 yards or ~3.6 MOA. Think Mil-Rad or Mil-Dot here.

Can it do better, sure, with load tuning to your gun and a lot of hand working brass. Will it run with something like a 75g BTHP, 77g SMK(or clone) or 75g AMAX, never, or at least not consistently. There is a reason even the military has adopted a 77g SMK round.

I run a CLE spun Krieger 18" SPR barrel. It runs .4-.5's consistently with my 77g SMK load(when I dont yank shots). It runs 55g FMJBT at around 1.5"-2" with maybe some sub 1.5" groups based on pure luck.

If got consistent 1-1.5" groups with 55g FMJBT I would be happy. Consistency is where I am at, not "Well I shot a .5" 3 shot group using M193 one time in the 35k rounds I have fired".

Im not here to argue.

Im just saying it can be done. You certainly have a good enough barrel. Youd be amazed how many times some clown with a $87 special he got from the trash pile bitches about accuracy.

And for the record, Im not the "Well I shot a .5" 3 shot group using M193 one time in the 35k rounds I have fired" type. It took me about 400 rounds of test loads, and 4-5 range trips to get my gun where I wanted it. I was extremely frustrated to the point where I was wondering "Is the barrel/scope junk? Am I screwing the pooch while Im shooting? Etc" Ultimately it was a combination of changing to CCI 400 primers (from Fed AR Match) and running up to 24.5gr of powder. I dont hand work my brass either. Its a mix of range crap that I pick up, inspect, run it thru my SSTL tumbler, size, trim and load. All my groups are 5 shots for my AR. I use 3 shot groups with my bolt 308 because I my shoulder gets tired after awhile and my mags only hold 4 rounds.

All I can say is if you are not seeing pressure signs, try bumping the powder up some.

Ramshot lists this for load data:

5.56

55gr HDY BT-FMJ

24.5 Start

27.3 Max

2.200 COL

.223

55 HDY BT-FMJ

23.2 Start

25.8 Max

2.200 COL

You can use either of these for load data. You seem to be on the low to middle of the .223 data, and very low compared to the 5.56 data. This is why I suggested bumping up your powder charge. Just throwing out some ideas based on considerable personal experience and frustration very similar to what your seeing. One time I did a ladder from 22 to 24 gr, .2gr per jump, 10 rounds per jump, shooting 2 5 shot groups, total of 110 rounds if my math is right. They all looked like s__t and I was so pissed I trashed the targets without a second though andwas ready to get rid of the barrel and or buy a different scope.

[caspian guy]

Umm. There are 55gr fmjs and then there are the hornady 55gr fmjs. I have found the hornadys bullets from the handy 6000 pack I use with my hand loads to shoot significantly better than normal m193 ammo particularly over h335 in a lake city or wcc case in most (but not all) barrels.

[MustangGreg66]

Ramshot lists this for load data:

5.56

55gr HDY BT-FMJ

24.5 Start

27.3 Max

2.200 COL

.223

55 HDY BT-FMJ

23.2 Start

25.8 Max

2.200 COL

You can use either of these for load data. You seem to be on the low to middle of the .223 data, and very low compared to the 5.56 data. This is why I suggested bumping up your powder charge. Just throwing out some ideas based on considerable personal experience and frustration very similar to what your seeing. One time I did a ladder from 22 to 24 gr, .2gr per jump, 10 rounds per jump, shooting 2 5 shot groups, total of 110 rounds if my math is right. They all looked like s__t and I was so pissed I trashed the targets without a second though andwas ready to get rid of the barrel and or buy a different scope.

I was going to suggest this. I've heard from several people, that TAC likes to run hot loads. Personally I'm running 25.0 Tac under the 55gr Hornady FMJ at 2.200" crimped at the cannelure. I didn't go to the length of an OCW test with these but found that to be a decent load. I think I am going to go back and do a test for these though, up to the Nato spec of 25.8gr.

[BitchinCamaro]

I've heard from several people, that TAC likes to run hot loads. .

My Wolf primers were cratering/extruding at 25.2, and by 27 it looked like I was going to pierce a primer. No extractor flow though.

Edited September 23, 2015 by BitchinCamaro

[BitchinCamaro]

Data incoming...

First Round Robin:

Edited September 23, 2015 by BitchinCamaro

[BitchinCamaro]

Second Round Robin:

Edited September 23, 2015 by BitchinCamaro

[BitchinCamaro]

Notes:

*I maxed the scope eye relief so I wasn't scooching my head back on the stock to get into the eye box. The result was much more neutral shooting.

*I was shooting under the shade of my car instead of frying in the sun like yesterday.

*As per Tony's suggesting I found bigger/betterer targets. 6x magnification still sucked, but I wasn't trying to mind-meld with the reticle while getting a perfect natural point of Aim.

* All targets were in a horizontal string to limit any derpiness on my part while trying to drop the reticle down.

*I still loaded singly with no mag on shooting bags, but I dropped the bolt from the release on each round to try and get consistent bolt/cam engagement each time.

*Today had a steady 3-5mph wind and I totally ignored it while shooting.

* I was going to take Rjacobs' advice and just shoot groups from each load, but I decided to do 2 round robbins instead for absolutely no good reason. The round robbin definitely induces more mental fatigue.

*2 "burners" were fired before starting up the second round robbin to compensate for barrel cooling while targets were swapped.

Just eyeballing, I'm thinking the OCW stable load node is 23.0, 23.2, 23.4g . Does anyone have more experience reading for OCW than I do? I'm semi-guessing here.

24.0 grains was my smallest group, but it looks like it's at the bottom edge of a scatter-node.

That's a shame because it groups nicely if I take my time (yes, I know, 3 shot groups are useless but I was trying to keep my method consistent)

Edited September 23, 2015 by BitchinCamaro

[dauntedfuture]

I don't know what kind of accuracy you are looking for or expecting but I know a 3 rd group will not provide much information. it looks like you found something that might work. go and shoot 10 rounds and see what happens.