what brass are you using?

[brian45acp]

For those who have not reamed their stock CZ barrel what brass are you guys using and what is your method? Buy new then clean and use for how many loads etc...

I am asking because I am tossing back and forth the idea to ream my barrels. I cant possibly have several CZ's which wont chamber slightly long brass so before I make my decision I want to be sure there isnt something else I can change in my reloading regimen. In short I have confirmed for certain that any brass over .755 wont chamber reliably in my CZ's. I called Cajun Gun Works and the owner was awesome enough to talk to me a bit. He says they dont ream barrels typically and cant ever recall doing any 9mm and he has seen many more CZ's then any of us. With my bullet removed and brass sized I cant get the barrel to lock into the lugs if the brass is over .755. This is with the slide off and slipping the brass under the extractor. I am going to try this same test with the extractor out this weekend and double confirm whats going on but at this point if my head space was 5 thousandths longer I wouldnt have any more issues. I am positive its not the bullet hitting the rifling.

So with that said the once fired bulk brass I am buying may be crap. I cant imagine you guys are buying new brass all the time so there is something I am missing here. I dont want to modify my chambers until I know for certain its the only choice. Please help me out with some sources for brass. I have really enjoyed not picking up brass and tumbling it but perhaps I need to buy quality brass and get back into that. Seems easier to ream the barrel once but with many of you guys saying DONT I want to find out what I can change instead.

Thanks

[gransport]

I have quite a bit of FC, WIN, Blazer, Spear and R-P. I keep reloading it until the case splits, which I've only found about 5 times in 10k. Some of my brass has probably been loaded close to 20 times. I shoot an AccuShadow with no mods to the barrel or chamber. Hope this helps.

Edited June 25, 2015 by gransport

[brian45acp]

It must just be where I'm getting my brass. It's First Class Bullets and Brass. They have great deals but maybe the once fired isn't once fired.

I have 2 pieces blazer 1 was 13 thousandths longer then the other. One real short and one long. Maybe this batch of brass came from someone who messed with it.

[hangin]

I use every type of brass. I only separate by crimp primers or not. Other than that I shoot it all.

[MstngLX50]

When I've spoken of reaming, or heard others speak of it in relation to CZs we were talking about opening up the throat of the barrel using a throat reamer; to allow loading longer without the bullet hitting the rifling. Not adjusting the headspace at all.

You seem to be asking about changing the headspace which I've never needed and I use any brass. In my experience pistol brass gets shorter, not longer with use. Brass thickness can vary quite a bit and cause inconsistent crimp issues but the length has always worked for me.

Based on the issues you're describing I'd check the crimp on your loads, as in probably add some more.

[vixty]

I just pick up range brass clean it and load it. It ot cracks I recycle it. Haven't had any issues yet in my shadow.

[brian45acp]

Dang I don't get it....

I tried adding a rediculous amount of crimp just to

see if it helped and it didn't. My luck sucks but no way I would have several CZs all doing the se thing. It's not my bullet hitting for sure because I removed it. The brass is a bit long. Maybe I just got a bad batch of brass for some reason.

The lee FCD and EGW U die are quite nice and produced a better finished round. But yet it didn't fix my issues and it's why I narrowed it down to the brass. Maybe I need to think harder and look at this more. I'm going to hold off on reaming anything. This Saturday I'm going to hit up all the cz shooters at the match and see what they are doing. I will bring with me some bad rounds and see what they make of it in their guns.

Seems half here team the barrel and half say they don't. But as mentioned teaming for the reason of accepting bullet profiles is different then changing head space

[pmt]

Are there brass shavings stuck in the chamber? Too much crimp? Are you checking your finished rounds in a chamber gauge? Have you checked sized/deprimed brass in a chamber gauge or in your chamber? Strip the gun & clean the chamber with a dental pick or some similar tool.

[razorfish]

^^^ Good Advice.

Can your CZ cycle factory ammo? If so, it's not the gun, it's your reloaded ammo (and not the brass).

The most frightening statement you said was, "I used a ridiculous amount of crimp just to see if it helped".

A. Start with a round nose profile bullet and set the OAL to 1.1 or less

B. Go back to the EGW U-Die and screw it down as low as possible. (If you're loading on a Dillon, turn it down so it touches the shell plate and then don't back it off).

C. Eliminate the Lee FCD for now and use a standard crimp ONLY die after you seat your bullet.

D. Crimp only enough to remove any flare you added to aid in seating the bullet. As a matter of fact, think of the crimp die as the "flare removal" die.

This is your starting point. Unless the chamber is cut wrong (or dirty), it's not the brass.

[brian45acp]

To be clear I'm not firing off these test rounds, lol. I have my press set up properly and it's a 1050. I just got the LEE dies to see if it helped.

Factory ammo does feed just fine.

Help me understand how sized and expanded brass won't allow the barrel to lock up. I can bore brush the barrels again to be sure no shavings are in there but if a micro amount of build up causes this that's not enough clearance in the chamber.

I don't over crimp and pull the bullet to check for deformation to be sure of it. There has to be something else but in my glock there are none of these issues. Of course that's not surprising being glock uses max tolerances on everything.

My dies are set touching the plate and all rounds pass chamber gauge and plunk test. I swear I'm

Going nuts here. I have reloaded about 13 years so I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this .

The chamber can't be wrong because I have 5 CZs and checked in 3 of them so far doing these tests. I have crappy luck but no way 2 sp-01 and a rami all are doing this and it be a gun issue. I'm glad I have the rami since it uses a traditional glock type barrel. With the longer brass the hood won't lock into the slide. I grab short brass and it's fine. This is with no bullet in the brass as to eliminate that part.

My understanding of a round passing plunk tests and case gauges but won't allow the barrel to lock up is due to a short head space. On the rami barrel the failed round can be seen just above flush from the barrel hood during the plunk test. It should sit just below the hood. Another piece of brass just 2-3 thousandths shorter is just fine. Ink test checks for bullet seating depth to be sure the O Give isn't hitting the rifling. On the opposite end the head stamp section of the brass hanging out too far because of short head space means the barrel is being pushed forward and can't lock up into the lugs in the case of my sp-01 or in the rami the barrel to the slide.

Edited June 26, 2015 by brian45acp

[brian45acp]

So if someone can tell me any possible solution other then reaming I would love to hear it. Passes all plunk test and with extractor out still won't lock up into the lugs on 4 CZs

Edited June 26, 2015 by brian45acp

[brian45acp]

The length of duty ammo brass is .748 the failed round above is .755

The length of duty ammo brass is .748 the failed round above is .755

Look at the duty ammo at .748 Cajun Gun Works told me I should have 3-5 thousands clearance head space of brass that is mid of the spec range which would be about .750. U can see there is maybe 1 thousandths clearance with brass at .748

found something else odd. After chambering a bad round from slide lock and letting it slam in after it seems to fit. It's almost like the head space of the barrel straightened the mouth of the brass or something

Edited June 27, 2015 by brian45acp

[MstngLX50]

What bullets are you using?

Have you chambered a fired casing with a bullet in it to see how far out you can load? The ogive on that round you showed could be engaging the rifling.

When you lay one of the fail rounds on a flat surface is there any lip from the flair remaining?

[brian45acp]

I checked both the bullet in the brass and out. No change. I am 120% its not the bullet hitting the rifling and even tried a different bullet loaded to the same brass. Its truly any brass over .755 that wont chamber. The jam is happening at the back end not the front. All rounds pass the plunk test and spin test. I even tapped them with a gun smith hammer to be sure they are in fact all the way in. I cleaned the head space with a dental pick to clear any debris and I have cleaned the breech face with a copper brush to clean build up. I tested with out the extractor and all is the same. I can measure a piece of brass before loading and know for certain it wont feed regardless of crimp or bullet shape/seat depth.

The rounds which did not chamber and I dropped the slide on them from the mag slammed in and did lock up. When I took them out to inspect them you could clearly see the brass at the mouth was all dinged up. Its the mouth of the brass slamming into the head space and as a result was all dinged and deformed.

I am sure its a short chamber issue and have to make a choice. Better brass and start picking it back up to clean and reload or ream and keep buying bulk once fired. I am leaning toward the fact that CZ has a short chamber yet is super accurate out of the box so leave it alone. I have a glock that will feed any crap ammo out there but it sure doesnt shoot like a CZ. Perhaps accepting that having a CZ means everything needs to be in spec and the benefit is a very accurate gun which shoots tight groups. I have certainly done better at the matches with this CZ more then I have a glock but its not like in USPSA we need 1.5 groups either.

I am just surprised nobody else found this out. This is mostly why I am reluctant to change anything otherwise I would just accept it has a short chamber and ream it to accommodate the longest brass in the bunch which is just 5 thousandths over the longest it will reliably chamber.

[brian45acp]

I have my calipers in my bag and am going to harass all the CZ shooters tomorrow at the match, lol. Snatch up the spent casings and measure them. I am going to see which of them have reamed and which havent. Seems so many hear say they dont have to ream the barrel and I just dont see how thats possible if using range pick up brass of mixed head stamps.

Edited June 27, 2015 by brian45acp

[huskerlrrp]

Here's an interested read about chambers and such...

http://www.brownells.com/GunTech/Gauging-Success-Minimum-Headspace-And-Maximum-Col/detail.htm?lid=11470&cm_mmc=social+media-_-Facebook-_-article-_-headspace%26COL

[razorfish]

I have my calipers in my bag and am going to harass all the CZ shooters tomorrow at the match, lol. Snatch up the spent casings and measure them. I am going to see which of them have reamed and which havent. Seems so many hear say they dont have to ream the barrel and I just dont see how thats possible if using range pick up brass of mixed head stamps.

Generally when CZ shooters ream their barrel it's so they can load longer. This has nothing to do with the chamber (i.e. you aren't reaming the chamber).

Ensure your bullets are correct for 9mm. (.355 for jacketed or .356 for plated/coated)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[brian45acp]

Good find, thanks

This is where my final thoughts seemed to take me as well. It seems the CZ is so accurate and some of that is due to how the chamber and head space work on them. With the brass tightly held to the breech face the head space is right at the minimum limit. This allows the COL to be set for the bullet to just make contact at the rifling. The article explains why so much brass is under SAAMI and why the benefit is to have a minimum/short head space for the most accuracy.

In the end I may just accept this as a CZ quirk and benefit by leaving the chamber alone. Buying better brass and getting back into tumbling seems to be the only answer to not reaming. Because we shoot handguns and not precision rifles I guess some figure it not a problem to simply ream the barrel. Both options make sense so now I need to choose.

[brian45acp]

razorfish:

I measured my bullets which are jhp and all are .355. The reamer would taper the rifling for longer or broader bullets but if you keep going it would also cut the head space back as well. My issue is for certain head space with longer then spec brass. Its quite difficult to measure head space on a cz barrel because the hood extends below the brass not above. My guess is that cz has its head space right at the limit of minimum SAAMI .755. I believe the range is .754 to .756. I can crush a .755 in there but anything over isnt going to chamber well. I can let the slide slam closed on a .757 and it will go but I can clearly see the case mouth all dinged up after the fact.

[huskerlrrp]

razorfish:

I measured my bullets which are jhp and all are .355. The reamer would taper the rifling for longer or broader bullets but if you keep going it would also cut the head space back as well. My issue is for certain head space with longer then spec brass. Its quite difficult to measure head space on a cz barrel because the hood extends below the brass not above. My guess is that cz has its head space right at the limit of minimum SAAMI .755. I believe the range is .754 to .756. I can crush a .755 in there but anything over isnt going to chamber well. I can let the slide slam closed on a .757 and it will go but I can clearly see the case mouth all dinged up after the fact.

I worked on a coworkers 1911 that had a similar issue. I put a pick down in the "corner" of the camber and hauled out a big ring of impacted lead. I'm sure you checked this or gave it a hell of a cleaning but I mention it "just in case".

[brian45acp]

I did run a pick along the head space and it was quite clean.

So today I meausred all the brass from the CZ crowd and its all under max spec of .754 so of course they have never had this issue. Seems just a case of bad batch of brass. Oh well, time to move on. I wont be modifying the barrel for crap brass. Honestly the safest bet has been hand cycling my ammo through the gun before the next match. I know for certain I wont have a failure and today was a success. No issues to speak of and just 1 MIKE because of plain old missing. A malfunction sure seems to butcher your stage plan and contribute to MIKEs so today was a relief from that

[facelessman]

I use every type of brass. I only separate by crimp primers or not. Other than that I shoot it all.

This. I only separate because loading the crimped brass I need to use a little more caution seating the primers (550).

I HAVE had issues with bulged brass, in which case I had somehow flipped the seating die over to the round nose from the flat nose side while loading MG JHPs.

[andrewtac]

It sounds like headspace is on the short side. Get some go nogo gauges and a reamer. I cut my 1911 at I think was .005 deeper than go, which was between the go and nogo. This was measured from the rear of the hood. I have had no issues with my czs, and use only range pickup. I might measure my chambers now.

[brian45acp]

Well its going to be all CZs then because I have 5 samples all wont chamber this longer out of spec brass so for that reason I dont want to modify the chamber. I accept the CZ has a shorter chamber and isnt max tolerance like a glock so I will just have to chamber check all my match ammo which honestly gives me more confidence I wont have a failure.

[Steve RA]

Generally, straight wall pistol cases will shorten when fired.