Gun/Scope Recommendation for Long Range Class

[TerryYu]

I've got an invite to attend a police tactical long range class that is scenario based and will go out to 1000 yards. Most of the shots will be inside of 400 yards. Problem is, I don't own any rifles that can go much past 100, let alone 1000!

Here's my list of "needs"

Rugged and Portable - I can't use a benchrest type gun, we'll be outside in the yuck lugging our rifles around the property so I'd like something that can take a bit of abuse

.308 - It's the "recommended" caliber for the class. I know it's not optimal for paper punching at really long ranges, but it's what the local LE guys shoot and I'm playing in their backyard.

Bipod of some sort

I can spend about $1100 total on a setup. Definitely would consider/prefer used equipment if i can find it.

I've narrowed down my search to the following guns:

Remington 700 SPS Tactical - seems like a obvious choice, since it's marketed to police SWAT teams.

Savage 10 FCP-SR or other- I've had Savage very strongly recommended to me by a local gunsmith. However I can't figure out the difference between Savage models, their website is not very helpful. They all seem like the same action but with different combinations of barrel length/stock/magazines and wildly different price tags.

Tika T3?

Some other gun I don't know about yet

I don't know much about rifle optics. I have a Redfield Revolution 3x9x40 laying around the house, but it was only a $200 optic so it's probably not good enough. Whatever I can save off the gun would be invested in the scope.

Thanks for the help guys!

Edited June 10, 2015 by TerryYu

[Flatland Shooter]

If its a one time event for you, could you maybe borrow a gun from a friend?

A lot of money unless you think you will want to continue with LR shooting.

[ShooterSteve]

If you are going to spend the money, and it's YOUR rig, I'd go with a caliber you want. LE guys often get caught up in what the mil uses, and the mil often has people up the chain making decisions which may not be the best for the guys on the ground. For example, I worked with the USMC HRT in the late 80s. Their sniper was talking about the reason that they shot 308. It was so if the shtf, they could use M60 ammo if they had to. Guys from the teams were shooting 300wm. Why? Because they could shoot whatever they wanted without some O6 up the line telling them what to do, and they found out from their own testing that the 300 was a superior round in the real world when dealing with vehicles, wind, cover etc. The 308 thing has stuck. It is an accurate round, and there are a lot of good rifles and shooters using it, so I'm not arguing that point, but if the 308 is so awesome, how come very, very few of them (if any) are seen in the top 20 at a PRS match?

I have a very accurate 308, two of them as a matter of fact, but when it comes time to reach out, my 6.5CM will get the nod every time, and I mean every time without hesitation.

[Graham Smith]

I've got an invite to attend a police tactical long range class that is scenario based and will go out to 1000 yards. Most of the shots will be inside of 400 yards. Problem is, I don't own any rifles that can go much past 100, let alone 1000!

First off, don't. Here's why...

Long range shooting is expensive. It requires a lot of expensive gear.

While you can shoot factory ammo, most people are loading their own.

It requires a huge amount of specialized knowledge of things like ballistics and atmospheric conditions and wind, etc.

It requires a lot of range time to get everything working together.

If you can, go anyway as an observer. Offer to help out doing misc things and spend the time talking with people. Find out what this is all about, what gear they are using. Most importantly, find out if there are other places to shoot - it's a bitch to have $3000+ worth of gear sitting around and nothing to do with it.

[TerryYu]

I've got an invite to attend a police tactical long range class that is scenario based and will go out to 1000 yards. Most of the shots will be inside of 400 yards. Problem is, I don't own any rifles that can go much past 100, let alone 1000!

First off, don't. Here's why...

Long range shooting is expensive. It requires a lot of expensive gear.

While you can shoot factory ammo, most people are loading their own.

It requires a huge amount of specialized knowledge of things like ballistics and atmospheric conditions and wind, etc.

It requires a lot of range time to get everything working together.

If you can, go anyway as an observer. Offer to help out doing misc things and spend the time talking with people. Find out what this is all about, what gear they are using. Most importantly, find out if there are other places to shoot - it's a bitch to have $3000+ worth of gear sitting around and nothing to do with it.

Those are good points Graham and I have most of the same apprehensions about getting into longer range shooting. I don't have anything that is larger than a 357 in the safe right now as everything I've done has been pistol related so I want to break into rifles for target shooting/hunting/etc..

After some more reading, I think I'm looking for an entry level F-TR rifle. I will be reloading for the rifle, just not immediately. If you could vector me in the right direction I'd appreciate it.

[ltdmstr]

Shooting .308 in a Remington 700 for this kind of thing is about the same as using an STI in .40 for Limited. Although 6.5 and some others may be better for long range, .308 is a lot more common, and it's very nice if you can buy some ammo on the spot or borrow some if needed. I don't think many LEs are going to be shooting 6.5 or any specialized caliber. Remington had a deal for USPSA members on Model 700 in .308 for $425. Not sure if it's still on. You could use that and there are plenty of decent scopes for reasonable prices. Not great, but useable. Good stuff is expensive, but it's better to wait until you know what you want before spending big bucks. And there's nothing wrong with using factory .308 ammo. Federal Gold Medal Match is pretty much the standard.

[TerryYu]

Shooting .308 in a Remington 700 for this kind of thing is about the same as using an STI in .40 for Limited. Although 6.5 and some others may be better for long range, .308 is a lot more common, and it's very nice if you can buy some ammo on the spot or borrow some if needed. I don't think many LEs are going to be shooting 6.5 or any specialized caliber. Remington had a deal for USPSA members on Model 700 in .308 for $425. Not sure if it's still on. You could use that and there are plenty of decent scopes for reasonable prices. Not great, but useable. Good stuff is expensive, but it's better to wait until you know what you want before spending big bucks. And there's nothing wrong with using factory .308 ammo. Federal Gold Medal Match is pretty much the standard.

I am 100% OK with the equivalent of a STI. Thanks for putting it in terms I understand. So to further the analogy would a Savage be the equivalent of a CZ TS, different but equivalent?

[ltdmstr]

I don't have personal experience with the brands you listed, but just about any factory rifle will be ok to start out. The FN SPRs are also nice and reasonably prices. I would say if you find a deal on something, then do it, and later you can sell it and get something nicer. You may lose a few bucks, but that's a lot better than spending a bundle on something and then finding out it's not what you want. There's also a huge market on used stuff. Check gunbroker and snipershide for both rifles and optics.

[Religious Shooter]

If I had to do it under $1100 total?

Remington 700 SPS Varmint in 308 or 243 $570 (Longer barrel than the SPS Tactical. Both rifles have crappy stocks. Gunbroker.com price.)

EGW Scope Rail $45

Falcon Menace Scope 4-14x $360

Burris XTR Rings 30mm $65

Everything plus s/h, tax, fees, etc.

My personal bare minimum:

700 SPS Varmint in 243 Win $570

Take Off 700P (etc.) stock $200

PTG AICS Bottom Metal $130

AICS Magazine $80

Smith to Inlet for BM and Pillars ~$150

EGW Scope Rail $45

Burris XTR Rings 30mm $65

Bushnell ERS Elite Scope $880

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1325134653/bushnell-elite-tactical-ers-rifle-scope-30mm-tube-6-24x-50mm-side-focus-1-10-mil-adjustments-first-focal-matte?cm_vc=ProductFinding

~$2120 + s/h + etc

[davsco]

yeah for 1k yards, I think you're looking at $3k to get started, with a little more than half that for glass. nightforce nxs 5.5-22x56 is king at a lot of long range matches I do, with some vortex gaining ground.

with a $1k budget, I'd suggest you just spectate or help out at the event and treat it as a learning opportunity, or borrow a buddy's rig as noted above.

I had a similar LR training opportunity a while back, and got a dpms LR308 24" heavy bbl .308 and the NF above, added a geisselle 2 stage trigger and magpul PRS stock and was in it for around $3500. that gun was easily sub moa (3 shot) out to 600yds which is the furthest I measured groups.

prob could get a rem 700 variant for somewhat less, perhaps with 5R barrel, and have something you can build on, get a 24" bbl though to keep your velocity up. I would recommend a 6.5 creedmore over the 308 just for help with the wind. if you don't reload, match ammo (hornady amax 6.5 vs fed gold medal 308) is similarly priced and similarly available, at least online. but don't skimp on the glass, even with an awesome gun, can't hit what you can't see.

[Graham Smith]

Simple answer is see if you can locate a Rem700 5R Mil-Spec. It's a 24" barrel which is adequate for most things and not too much for others. Failing that, then look for a Rem700P (police). Both have decent enough stocks and triggers.

Get a Harris bipod and a couple Triad bean bags for support.

Find a source of 175gr target ammo and use the published drops for.

The scope is the tough part. You can easily spend more on it than on the rifle. Just starting out, a good option is the Vortex PST FFP. Either the 4-16x or the 6-24x depending on how much you can afford. Go with the MRAD version and if you spring for the 6-24x go with the EBR-2C.

Get a 20 MOA base (EGW is good enough) and TPS TSR rings.

Get a good hard case to carry things in.

This will run you around $2600 but it's about the lowest you can go. You can spend less but you will just start an endless round of upgrades.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Graham Smith

[TerryYu]

Thanks everybody. I'll be looking for those 700s.

[ShooterSteve]

700 is ok to get started, but to say Remmy is just like STI is a joke. Remington has so many problems right now with QC that it isn't funny. The advise that Graham gives above is pretty solid. Don't get frustrated if you are having trouble hitting stuff. If you come to the east coast, call Dan at Bangsteel and set up a lesson. You will get more dope for your rifle than you can shake a stick at. Right now Vortex and Bushnell are the go to scopes. NF is doing better with the F class crowd, but you get a very good scope for less money with a Bushy or Vortex. I'm wanting a Gen 2 Razor so bad I can taste it, but right now my rifle is shooting so good, I'm not touching anything. ( I probably just jinxed myself for Woodys).

Edited June 11, 2015 by shooter steve

[ltdmstr]

Just about any stock gun is going to need work to reach it's full potential. That goes for Remington, STI, or most others. From what I've seen, STI isn't so great with quality either. But that really wasn't the point. He's looking to do a LE training course, and at least around here, probably 90% of LEs use R700 in .308 for a bolt rifle.

[Graham Smith]

Another option is to look online for a used package (rifle and scope) that fits the bill. Or, a used rifle and scope separate.

FWIW, if you are shooting with LEO's, odds are good that they will be shooting 168gr Federal Match ammo. Get the same ammo and they can get you on target a lot easier because your drops (come up's) are going to be pretty much the same.

[fishpinoy27]

700P or 700LTR... They are all police model and their stocks are already bedded. They are good for entry level LR rifles. I have a LTR with a vortex scope and they shoot sub MOA.

[fishpinoy27]

I also have a PST 6x24 FFP

[ranger]

I built the following to test the "long range" waters - Rem 700 LTR 308 (factory fluted 20 inch barrel), used Nightforce 20 MOA base and rings (bought from another LR shooter), Primary Arms 4x14 FFP scope with ACSS reticle, AAC 51T flash hider (so I could use my AAC suppressor). An experienced long range shooter also helped me install an adjustable cheek rest and we filled the OEM stock with lead shot/epoxy mix to add weight. I got a deal on a used Burris bipod too. I added a Timney Rem 700 trigger too when Accurate Ordnance installed the AAC 51T.

I took this rig a few months ago to Legion OTP in south Ga for a two day long range practice session and I had no issues hitting USPSA size steel targets to over 800 yards. I engaged targets out to 1200 yards but honestly did not have a good enough spotting scope for spotter to see hit or miss.

I am very happy with this rig for the money. Many look down on the PA 4x14 FFP ACSS but it works for me.

[bushmeat]

Picked up a Savage 114 in .270 Win from a pawnshop for $300. Put a Vortex Viper 6.5-20x50 on it for $400+. Got a Blackhawk bipod from Wal-Mart for $50. Stuffed old T-shirts into a Levi's pant leg to use as a shooting bag. Shoot in area farm matches that go out to 900 yards. Beat a lot of more expensive rigs.

[FlightMurse]

I know remington has a cult like following with the Rem 700, but I humbly suggest you get online or into local shops and look for clean used savage with the accutrigger. They are definitely ugly, but I think they are one of the best values in rifles. I picked up a new 10 FLCP-k for dirt cheap (one advantage of shooting lefty). Put on a Vortex HS-T (same glass as PST but without the IR. If you don't need FFP its way cheaper). and a set of Forster dies and it is an honest half moa rifle. If I do my part and the wind is right it will dip into the .20's for a 5 shot group.

Keep in mind that your rifle is only as good as its weakest point. Don't skimp on your rings and bases!

[dpollard]

^^^^^^^^^ +1 on this.

Savages are typically very accurate right out of the box. The nice thing about Savage is once you have the action you can easily swap barrels for difference calibers later on. Shilen and Criterion both make excellent match grade barrels that are pre-fit for Savage actions, you literally just unscrew old barrel and screw new one on. Does require an action wrench and barrel nut wrench along with head-space guages but both can be had for just over $100, maybe less if you buy used.

You do not have to spend $3,000+ to get into a long range gun. I am into mine about $1200 and it shoots great. I already owned a Vortex Viper scope so I put that on and it has served me well out to 1K yards. I do not shoot competition but enjoy shooting long-range.

I know remington has a cult like following with the Rem 700, but I humbly suggest you get online or into local shops and look for clean used savage with the accutrigger. They are definitely ugly, but I think they are one of the best values in rifles. I picked up a new 10 FLCP-k for dirt cheap (one advantage of shooting lefty). Put on a Vortex HS-T (same glass as PST but without the IR. If you don't need FFP its way cheaper). and a set of Forster dies and it is an honest half moa rifle. If I do my part and the wind is right it will dip into the .20's for a 5 shot group.

Keep in mind that your rifle is only as good as its weakest point. Don't skimp on your rings and bases!

[LCDRJGB]

The budget is not long range shooting friendly. Perhaps you can find a used 700 AAC-SD and toss on a cheap fixed 10x or 12x scope. You'll need a bipod too. Look at reman ammo from Freedom munitions, but stay away from 168s (use 155s or 175s if going 800+ yards).

Ideally you would get a Tikka T3 CTR and a vortex 6-24 PST and a Harris bipod, but you're going to need more than $1K for that.

Another rifle to consider, if you can find one, is a Savage 12 LRP in 6.5 Creedmoor. 6.5 Creed offers much better ballistics than 308 and has cheaper match ammo options (140 AMAX). That is a good out of the box setup. Again put up a fixed 10x or 12x scope and perhaps you can rock for not much above the $1K limit.

[JSCHIEFEN]

Savages are crude but they shoot very well. Have setup several for friends in everything from 223 to 338 Lapua and they have all shot well. Accutrigger is easy to adjust and durable! Set one up with a Vortex in 300 win mag and it shot sub 0.5 moa with every load I tried! That rig was all used off Gunbroker and was less than 900$ I think Savage puts the money into the barrel even though with the bore scope they r not pretty but they shoot well. I own a 112V in 22-250 and it is as accurate as a Sinclair built 40XB for a prairie dog gun. Just butt ugly!

[asr1]

Savage as mentioned above is very acurate out of the box 308 WIN cheap to shoot with good results to 1000 yrd with the right load and bullet I personal use the 175 gr SMK with great results in 10 FP 1x10 twist.

Scopes I wounded if you have the chance to look up the fixed poewr SS brand offerd by SWA I have the 20x one with EGW 20 MOA base exlent optics and very solid platform. Keep in mind you can change barrels on the Savage very easy and a lot options in calibers ( north Land Shooters Supply good people to deal with)

Just saying you don't have to spend a lot to shoot long rang target.

[The Happy Gila]

If you're still looking for glass, check out the "demo" program that Cameraland.com offers. I just bought (my second) Vortex Viper PST FFP 6-24 from them. Even though the scope was listed as a Demo...it was brand spanking new when it showed up.

$799 for everything

This scope is perfectly capable of being used at 1000 yds