CONFUDDLED - Which Pistol - Caliber ...

[MrDesertBrat]

Sorry to bring up an age old, and ongoing debate.. BUT ..I have gotten myself very confused and muddled = ConFudDLED big time.

I have been shooting local club IDPA matches with a new S&W M&P 9MM Pro (love it) … Now I want to start playing in the steel world, and though not indigent, don’t want to go into the dollar race (aka race gun) competition. Thus I am looking at Limited (Yes I know I can use the M&P for Production). I Currently own a bevey of pistols include a Springfield 1911 .45., Glocks (17, 19) and assorted revolvers. I am looking to purchase something for Steel, Limited division.

In all the reading, forum trolling and listening (You Tube) I am very confused at what I should use for both Limited and Production Steel events. Pistols range from 1911, 2011, Striker/Safe action and the calibers range from 9mm & .40 cal, blah blah blah. I give up guessing, thus I want to reach out to knowledgeable, experienced sources - soooooo, thanks for volunteering! {smiles}

1. So, if you had $800 to $1,000 to spend and want to pick a gun (style and caliber – not necessarily manufacturer) to shoot competitively in Steel, Limited division, what would you choose?
2. As to the Steel, Production division, the same range and question – (hmmm would the S&W M&P in 9mm work well or something else?)

I am an experienced pistol shooter (over 40 years), handloader, and dreamer. Did a lot of old time police combat competition (30 years ago) .. but its been a while since I have been shooting competitively with a pistol other than the recent foray into IDPA.

Your guidance/thoughts/discussions are gratefully welcome.

Thanks.

[kmca]

IMO, a single stack 9mm would be a great gun for limited. If you wanted to advance to Open, just a new barrel/comp and red dot will get you there. It holds 9 or 10 rounds, but then, if you need more than 9, you've blown the string anyway. Sorry, won't work for production though.

[Guest]

I'd second the 9mm single stack recommendation for the same reasons.

If you want a limited gun that you could shoot steel with then an EAA Tanfoglio Limited Elite in 9mm or 40 would work. Nice thing about the tanfos is that swapping calibers is a piece of cake with a slide conversion kit. I have a 38 super open Tanfo, but I use it much more with the 9mm slide conversion. In fact I am fixing that gun up for Action Steel matches and will be shooting Limited (9mm). I also have a 40 slide conversion in case I want to mess with limited or limited 10 on a more serious level in USPSA. The slide conversions used to be very reasonably priced from EAA, but they doubled their price about a year or so ago. On the used market the slide conversions can be found for fair prices, though.

For production I'd run one of the guns you already own.

[ZackJones]

I'm glad I'm not the only one that has had trouble finding the right steel gun .

I started with revolvers - S&W Model 10 and then 625. Moved to M&P .40 and then M&P .40 C.O.R.E. so I could play in open (shot production and open for several matches). Foolishly convinced myself that 9mm was needed (it's not) for steel and USPSA production so I bought a 9mm M&P. I've since sold all of those guns and now shoot Rimfire Pistol Open and Rimfire Rifle Open and LOVE it. I will eventually start shooting a center fire gun again and when I do it will be with a para pro custom 18.9. I actually have two of them and one will be converted into an open gun and the other will be setup for Limited. Eventually I'll get rid of both of those and buy an STI SteelMaster. That's the gun I lust for the most. Since I'm probably the worst person to give advice on what you should shoot I won't -- I just wanted you to know you're not alone . BTW, welcome to the forum.

ETA: For those of you recommending single stack 9mm any specific models?

Edited June 9, 2015 by ZackJones

[P.E. Kelley]

I am confused...you have a MP in 9mm that you love...it is steel challenge...shoot it in every division you can!

I use a Glock 17L in Limited and Open (same gun no changes)

[Nimitz]

yep, not a whole lot of difference between Limited & Production in Steel Challenge, magwell and holster is about it. You can shoot your M&P in both divisions in a match if it's setup to meet Production rules simply by signing up in that division and you're not really giving up much. In a Tier II or Tier III match unless you are trying to win the Steelmaster title most people will shoot one centerfire gun and maybe a rimfire gun if they are into that.

If I were looking to buy a new gun to shoot Production in SC I'd look at CZ Shadow and add a magwell to it and different holster if I wanted to shoot Limited but that's because I shoot a Shadow now ...

[TonytheTiger]

Now I'm confused, are there any on the clock reloads in SC? I don't shoot SC but I thought it was all stand and shoot, no reloads and as such, no need for a magwell?

[kmca]

Now I'm confused, are there any on the clock reloads in SC? I don't shoot SC but I thought it was all stand and shoot, no reloads and as such, no need for a magwell?

The last thing you want to hear when you're shooting steel challenge is "nice reload".

[hornetx40]

Now I'm confused, are there any on the clock reloads in SC? I don't shoot SC but I thought it was all stand and shoot, no reloads and as such, no need for a magwell?

No there aren't any on the clock reloads and if you have to it's already to late on that run. SC is 4 plates and a stop plate. Hopefully only 5 shots.

Magwells do help locate your hand better for some people....keep it forced high on the grip.

[danjordan78]

I shoot a Steelmaster for open. Wanted the same feel for a limited gun so got an STI Eagle 2011. Love having the same feel for both guns. I used to shoot a Springfield 1911 in 9mm for limited but didn't like the different grip sizes and balance points. Your M&P will work fine and it's pretty cheap to build up two or three of them for different divisions if you like.

I much prefer 9mm to any other caliber. Easy to load, small charges of powder, lots of bullet options, and brass is cheap. When I can buy a large flat rate box of once fired for $120 (about 5000 pieces) I don't bother picking my brass up if I don't feel like it.

Not to mention loaded rounds are smaller and lighter making travel and carrying much easier.

[ZackJones]

Now I'm confused, are there any on the clock reloads in SC? I don't shoot SC but I thought it was all stand and shoot, no reloads and as such, no need for a magwell?

You can but as others have pointed out if you're reloading you've blown the run.

The last thing you want to hear when you're shooting steel challenge is "nice reload".

Very true!

[MrDesertBrat]

Wow.. thanks for the feed back folks.. guess I have learned:

1. 9mm is the way to go.. cheap to reload, lighter recoil (with the right loads)

2. Current M&P Pro would work fine ... and would help me develop a common sight picture. grip, consistency between multiple disciplines (Steel, IDPA, USPSA, etc.) .. etc.

3. if I want to shoot other divisions, use the M&P .

4. More than 9 round might be a waste of time (unless using for other disciplines)

5. If I want another toy, couple of options

a) can use multiple M&P Pro - each tricked out to meet the division

single stack 1911 (though somewhat restricted in divisional use and other disciplines)

6. Go and have fun - and don't get caught up in the equipment yet - shoot it, learn it, refine it.. then pick a toy that fits ME!

Okay. that said {smiles} ... my desire for a new toy is drawing me to a 1911 9mm - double stack (Para 18.9) or single stack (S&W, Para 9 Pro Comp) and my practical side say.. stick with the M&P Pro, and maybe buy another one, trick it out so it still falls in IDPA ESP and for Steel Limited. {sigh} another decision point. The only draw back I have with the M&P Pro (tricked or not) is the trigger pull - the damn 1911 is so short, smooth, etc. (spoken by an old time stand tall. bulls-eye shooter).

Desire vs. practicality terrible choice.

Okay, open to thoughts, persuasions, arguments, calls of stupidity, etc.

Needless to say, thanks so much for everyone's views, it is very much appreciated - Zack, I hope this has been somewhat helpful to you too!

Gratefully,

Chuck A

Edited June 10, 2015 by MrDesertBrat

[kmca]

While I believe the 9mm single stack would be the ideal open division gun for steel challenge, it's only good for that one division/sport. The double stack can at least be used for both steel challenge and USPSA Open divisions. If you're trying to be practical

[scottlep]

I think the magwell statement was more about being production legal. All divisions for sanctioned SC matches follow USPSA gun division rules. So, since a magwell would not be legal in Production division in USPSA it is not legal in SC Production either. The added rounds of limited don't really do much for you in SC either. So the main difference between Prod and Limited in SC is race holster vs. standard type holster and the types of production guns and modifications allowed per the USPSA Production rules and gun list.

Personally I shoot a Custom 2011 9mm in Open Division (same gun I use for USPSA) and Springfield 9mm 1911 in Limited from the same race holster. I don't shoot the 1911 in Single Stack for Steel Challenge because it would force me to change holster rigs.

Edited June 10, 2015 by scottlep

[ZackJones]

I could be talked out of one of my Para's

[danjordan78]

A double stack 9mm can be used for 3 gun as well. Not so much with the 1911. A little easier to find used ones or a bigger market if you are trying to sell it later. That's one reason I went with an STI eagle.

Not much good for limited in USPSA since its minor PF but could still be used.

[photoracer]

I have been using double stacked 1911s for USPSA, Steel Challenge, and 3-gun for a few years. Primarily STIs or Bul M-5s in 9x23mm. But I got tired of using the STI open gun in Open Div. 3-gun because of reloading (same in Tac Ops using a Bul M-5 in the same caliber). So I acquired an open Glock 34 (ported barrel and RMR) and then built an entire new Limited slide for it to add Tac Ops to the mix. So now I can shoot one gun in 9mm, slightly different ammo setup for each slide setup. And I don't have to reload if I don't want to. Also acquired a Dan Wesson Guardian SS in 9mm and have already shot it in IDPA ESP and SC SS, and in Stock Auto in the PSA Shootout. One of the slickest running single stacks I have ever shot and I really bought it for CCW purposes. Then I bought a Glock 17 for IDPA SSP simply because I decided to retire my HK USP-C from that. With the exception of getting the Bul Custom Shop M-5 rebarreled in .40 so it can be used again in USPSA Limited I am moving most of my shooting activities to 9mm (excepting rimfires). I like the option of not having to reload in case things get in the way or because of a late entry into something. I don't plan on using the open Glock 34 in USPSA.

Edited June 11, 2015 by photoracer

[ZackJones]

Once I get my Para built into an open gun I'll shoot open minor with it in the few USPSA matches that I do plan to shoot.

[MrDesertBrat]

Well, I have "finished" my personal review.. thanks for all your thoughts. My solution:

Some of the fastest and "winnngest" steel shooters, non-open, are using striker pistols (yes, even in the limited class). A lot of that has to do with sponsorship. In open divisions - SA 1911 types (and variants) rule the roost. Why - trigger pull, slide lighting, .38 super, slicked actions, etc.

Okay, that said, after discussing on multiple forums, and a few responses from pros, most feel the M&P 9mm Pro with "tweeks" will do very well in Limited .. and is doing well in general. Which surprised me - I thought the 1911 dominated, but not so. M&P's, Sig's, Glock's all do very well (again, sponsored shooters).

Thus me thinks, I will drop the idea of a 1911, and learn to shoot the M&P Pro (already shooting one in IDPA) .

I might pick up another M&P 9mm Pro .. and then tweak:

1. High polish to ramps and chamber of current stock barrel - or - Wilson Combat barrel (same profile except crown, as stock - which retains USPSA production and Limited, and IDPA. Much debate on whether the after market barrel adds much, other than polish job, that the new M&P Pro barrels currently offer
2. Apex full firing system change out (keeping the stock return spring, stock sear spring, and actual trigger) - might restrict gun to limited, but can be changed back for production
3. Fiber Optic sights to match POI (and what I had on the IDPA gun)
4. Tungsten Guide Rod (Not sure if IDPA would approve - thus may need to be changed if I need to use it in IDPA - keep a stock barrel and guide rod/sprinf assembly in bag for quick change out)
5. SSS "ESP" Magwell (for better grip location) - for Limited and can be removed.
6. Stippled grips (front and rear)
7. And If I like it, maybe next year I will take the next step, make it full "Limited" (Lighten slide, full Apex trigger system, lighter loads to match slide, recoil springs, etc.)

This way I will be shooting similar guns between IDPA and Steel, same sight pictures, grip size, etc. and might be able to use the final product as a backup (ESP only) gun. And will be a heck a lot less expensive than playing in the 1911 space.

Long road to get back to where I started - just a tad smarter, no not smarter, just a tad more knowledgeable.

Thanks all.

Edited June 11, 2015 by MrDesertBrat

[photoracer]

That sounds like a very good plan to me. Most shooters seldom get the most out of the guns they have before looking around for the next great thing to buy.