MrDesertBrat

Will only go on one way given the mounting screw placement.

Thanks.. sent the email to Vortex this morning.. waiting for a response.

Thanks Steve .. my thoughts/worries also.. should have a slight downward cant on the front..

Folks, I am attempting to install a Vortex Venom 6 mil on my S&W M&P 9 Pro (5"). I obtained a Venom dove tail mount (Vortex 5110). When I installed it, I added the "shim plate". It had two dimples in the middle of the 1st third of the plate and four parameter holes. I place the plate, as directed, over the four corner pins of the mount base and place the Venom on the top of the shim plate. Tightened everything down. The Venom has a slight cant to it (higher towards the muzzle) caused by the dimples on the shim plate (more than a 1/16th). Also, the screws provided by the mount obtained for the M&P did not fit the Venom's mounting screw holes and had to be drilled/reamed out. So what is the issue if I have followed the directions? Wow, the red dot is not even close to the front sight - it is significantly higher - not sure co-witnessing the dot and front sight is even practical. Questions: 1. Has anyone one else done the same - Venom on a S&W M&P Pro (not a CORE) and experienced the same issue? 2. Any ideas on what the shim plate is for? 3. Is that upward/front cant normal? Thoughts, suggestions, welcome Thanks

Update: 1) Cleaners I am trying Hornady's Cleaner and seems to work well .. for now. Been told the Simple Green needs to the HD new version, otherwise some pitting on aluminum make/will occur Have been told (by Crest Cleaning) that all part should be air blasted prior to lubing to remove carbon pieces and water before lubing 2) Dunk lubes Am trying the CC-400L for now. Seems to do a good product jobs. Actually too good of a job. I cleaned the guns, and while they were still warm placed into the lube for 10 mins. Removed them and let them drip dry for 24 hrs. Results were a very well lubed pistol. Too much so, even after wiping, it was still "too greasy". I contacted Firearms Cleaning, in NJ (Crest Cleaning Agent) and discussed the issue (too much lube). He advised the process I am using is wrong. His suggestions were to: Use Hot water and a good solution for the cleaning (10 mins or so, 130 degrees or so) Remove and using compressed air, blow everything dry. Firing pin holes, nooks and crannies, etc. The cleaner will vibrate off carbon and stuff, but the particle size may not allow them to leave small areas (firing pin tunnels, extractor grooves, etc.) After air blasts, heat the lube (120 to 130) and place parts in it.. place into the sonic system and vibrate for 4-5 mins. If I want a thicket coat, use a lower temperature. Anyways, that's my update for now. Summary: Hornady cleaner works well. CC-400L Gun Lube is great for long term storage, not sure I can recommend for every day use (at this time - I will try the suggested method and report the results). Anyone have any experience with Slip 2000 gun lube? That will be my fall back plan..

Hmm.. more toys.. not all that bad of an idea.. hmmm.. CZ 75 (DA/SA) with optics on slide.. hmmm....

Thanks zzt. Given that I already have the 9 Pro, and it already has the Apex FFT in it, and Vortex Venom & slide/dove tail mount is on the way .. my choices really seemed to be only 2, opps 3.. maybe 4 1. Do nothing, put the reflex sight on and shoot cans 2. Concede, get a KKM barrel and comp and try to play with the fast big boys 3. Remove the Apex FFT and FFT specific parts, remove mag well, get an Apex competition kit for the standard trigger, and shoot CO. 4. Sell the Venom and pout. ...and petition the USPSA ruling body for a Limited CO class.. more complexity... {sigh} Life was much more simple as a kid, .22 short/.22 LR, rifle, bent sights, sand pit and tin cans ...

Thanks zzt. I am running into the same issue (eyes) and wanted to try the CO class. I have an M&P ESP for IPDA .. and was looking to put some glass on it.. BUT.. some rules are in the way (damn administrators {smiles}). I will have to remove the Apex FFT trigger and kit (forcing me to buy the competition trigger kit enhancement kit and use the stock trigger) and pull the mag well off. Other wise, if I use optics with the ESP setup, I would have to be in the Open class {shudders} playing with the racers. Another question, regarding barrels. The M&P 9 4.5" can come with a threaded barrel, yet the 5" Pro Series and 9L series does not. Does that inhibit the use of a after market 5" threaded barrel in the 9 Pro and 9L for CO? Thanks!

Thanks moto.. sorry to waste folks time.. Rules state: " — A handgun may be approved specifically for Carry Optics division provided that the model of the pistol used is an approved Production Division model AND meets Carry Optics criteria. Any pistol that is not on the approved Production list, but meets Carry Optics criteria must submit a Manufacturers Declaration Form to DNROI stating that a minimum of 500 complete handguns have been manufactured and are available to the general public"

Oh Boy.. sorry for the foolish posts then.. Rules: — A handgun may be approved specifically for Carry Optics division provided that the model of the pistol used is an approved Production Division model AND meets Carry Optics criteria. Any pistol that is not on the approved Production list, but meets Carry Optics criteria must submit a Manufacturers Declaration Form to DNROI stating that a minimum of 500 complete handguns have been manufactured and are available to the general public the S&W 1911 is NOT a production division model.. looks like the CZ's will reign .. sorry for wasting folks time.

Opps.. that would answer a lot of question .. did not see that...

Folks, Looking to start shooting USPSA. Have a nice S&W 1911 9mm Performance Center pistol with Dawson sights (thus restricted to SS and/or Limit 10). Given my aging eye sight, I am considering going and place a Burris Fastfire 3 on it, and trying the CO division. After reading this forum and the rule book, some concerns have arisen: 1. I just noted that they changed the magazine rule are not limiting magazine capacity - hence I believe I would be at a disadvantage (extra on course reloads) over the high capacity 9mm (CZ 75, etc.). True? 2. Some one noted that an optic sight mounted behind the ejection port was a disadvantage over one in front of the ejection port! HUH? Why would that be? 3. Any thoughts on the options for us old folk with failing eye sight? 4. Also have an IPDA Enhanced M&P Pro 9L Performance Center pistol - would I be better to make that a CO class pistol (mill slide or doe tail mount) and live with the long trigger pull? Thoughts, Comments, Concerns, Advise MORE than welcome and greatly appreciated. Thanks

It might. BUT in my case, it makes using a 1911 tougher .. if a typical string is 22 to 30 round, that's 2 reloads for the high capacity 9's (CZ 75's etc.) and 3 reload for the 1911.

Folks, I know I bring an often discussed topic back to light - but I think much has changed since some of the original threads on Ultrasonic cleaning liquids/solutions were posted. I just received as a gift, a Hornady Lock and Load Ultrasonic 7L cleaner. Now I am looking for effective cleaning solutions to use with it. I will be using in on several competition pistols that have been built - and thus contain stainless steel, blued steel, aluminum, polymer and plastic parts (S&W Victory race gun, Ruger Mark II Bullseye gun, M&P Pro 9L, and S&W 1911 9mm - all with various after market parts from Volquartsen, TandemKross, Wilson, Clark, Striplin, etc.). My research noted that several companies have various Ultrasonic cleaners and post cleaning lubricants. I would greatly appreciate any feed back on the associated products, their use and things to avoid. Will break this into two sections - (1) Cleaners and (2) Chemical Dryer/Lubricators. So, regarding the cleaning solutions - I was clean gun parts - cleaning every 300-500 rnds. The leaders I am seeing are: Crest Ultrasonic (Chem-Crest) Hornady Lock and Load Cleaner (One Shot) - Gun Parts Lyman Sonic Gun Cleaner Slip 2000 #725 Slip 2000 Ultrasonic Cleaner Shooter's Choice Ultrasonic Cleaner Microline 90 Brownell's Ultrasonic Cleaning Fluid M-Pro 7 L&R Mfg. Safety Weapon Cleaning Solution #215 Home grown - Ed's Red (Trany fuild, mineral spirits, kerosene); Simple Green; Lemishine & Dawn; Dawn only; Purple Power & Dawn; As to post cleaning "dunk" chemical drying/lubing, looking for water displacement and light "dry" films - not waxy or oily. I will still oil (rem oil) critical contract points Crest Ultrasonic Lube (Chem-Crest) Lyman Turbo Sonic Gun Lube Slip 2000 Ultra-Thin Gun Lube Slip 2000 EWL Brownells Ultrasonic Oil L&R Mfg. Safety Ultrasonic Weapon Lubricating Solution # 212 Home Grown - WD40; Mineral spirits & rem oil; Tranny fluid and mineral spirits/acetone; One Shot Case Lube; Ballistol; Thoughts views and experience are MORE than welcome.. Thanks!!

Thanks folks. The gun is being assembled for SC and an IDPA ESP back up if I need it (I shoot and M&P Pro in SSP). I can easily have several "captured" recoil springs to drop in so adjusting to light load and then returning to the IDPA 125 PF will be a breeze if I need to. Zack, interesting approach 95 grains bullets.. hmmm... how was the 20 yrd accuracy? What weight recoil spring did you use? Warp, I am assuming he did not have an issue stabilizing the 115gr at 900 fps? Do you know what spring weight he used on the gun? Hi-Power, damn son, 3.1grs .. wow... for a PF of 100 that's about 870 FPS .. any issues stabilizing the bullet? Was the Bullet Jacketed, Plated, or Cast? Thanks All..Very much appreciated.

Great Question - wish it had been asked 4 months ago when I got my 650 {smiles} .. anyways, I have Lee, RBCS, Hornady dies for 9mm.. in the 650, I have found, through much experimentation, though most all work well the "best" combo I have is, by Station: #1 - Dillon full length sized and decapper (though I size and decap separately, tumble/pin wash before I put in the 650) #2 - Dillon powder through the die and flair/belling #3 - Dillon Powder measure/cop #4 - Dillon Bullet Seater #5 - Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die Note: A lot of the non-Dillon dies do not have enough thread length to be usually in the 650 - just can't screw them down far enough to be a proper distance from the shell plate. Comments/Advise: 1. I had some issues at first - the cases were "bulging" about .150 to .250 above the extractor groove (bulge was NOT there prior to loading - they were gauged to check and passed). Found that I was not adding enough "bell" to the case, so the bullet seating die was forcing the bullet in the case, added more downward pressure on the case causing the belling. So, I added more bell, and just enough tapered crimp to remove bell (case mouth ended up .376 to .378.), and made sure I well lubed the cases with One Shot. Bottom line, I went from 1 out of 10 failures (no go gauge checking) to 1 out of 100. 2. Contrary to some folks belief, the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die does not resize the case. The carbine ring is at the die mouth and compresses the case base only to .391 - the factory/SAMMI spec for 9mm cases. Hope this helps - all said as my view point and experience .. and sorry about the extra info - just though it might be helpful as you are going down the road I just travelled. You just purchased an awesome machine - enjoy.

Folks, I am planning on trying some Steel Challenge events, Limited class with a modified M&P Pro 9mm. Since one of the key elements is getting the gun back on target ASAP, I was considering lowering the recoil to assist on quicker target acquisition. I am willing to tweak the recoil spring weight to help, and use lighter loads.. thus I ask: 1. Anyone know of a good, consistent load with Win 231 (have 8lbs to use up) that has low recoil? 2. Has anyone developed at good non-compensated 9mm load in general for steel? If so what might it be? 3. Am I reading too much into this - aka, just go with what I know - 124 Berry HBFP over 4.5 grs Win 231 with Fed Primers. 4. If I lighten the bullet (say 100gr), lighten the load (3.8 Win231), use a lighter spring - will it make much of a difference in recoil/recovery time? Thanks Folks..

Title is some what misleading - have a couple of questions regarding IDPA divisions rules and equipment. I have a M&P 9mm Pro 5" I shoot in Production/SSP, and I want to: Remove stock barrel and add a Wilson Combat barrel (same length and profile - crown slightly different, highly polished chamber and ramp) Add a deep stippled read grip (visible change) Have the grip front stippled (visible change) What is the results (besides spending money and wishing for better accuracy). Still in production or now have I moved to ESP? If an tungsten guide rod is added, does that also move me from SSP to ESP? Thanks.

Well, I have "finished" my personal review.. thanks for all your thoughts. My solution: Some of the fastest and "winnngest" steel shooters, non-open, are using striker pistols (yes, even in the limited class). A lot of that has to do with sponsorship. In open divisions - SA 1911 types (and variants) rule the roost. Why - trigger pull, slide lighting, .38 super, slicked actions, etc. Okay, that said, after discussing on multiple forums, and a few responses from pros, most feel the M&P 9mm Pro with "tweeks" will do very well in Limited .. and is doing well in general. Which surprised me - I thought the 1911 dominated, but not so. M&P's, Sig's, Glock's all do very well (again, sponsored shooters). Thus me thinks, I will drop the idea of a 1911, and learn to shoot the M&P Pro (already shooting one in IDPA) . I might pick up another M&P 9mm Pro .. and then tweak: High polish to ramps and chamber of current stock barrel - or - Wilson Combat barrel (same profile except crown, as stock - which retains USPSA production and Limited, and IDPA. Much debate on whether the after market barrel adds much, other than polish job, that the new M&P Pro barrels currently offer Apex full firing system change out (keeping the stock return spring, stock sear spring, and actual trigger) - might restrict gun to limited, but can be changed back for production Fiber Optic sights to match POI (and what I had on the IDPA gun) Tungsten Guide Rod (Not sure if IDPA would approve - thus may need to be changed if I need to use it in IDPA - keep a stock barrel and guide rod/sprinf assembly in bag for quick change out) SSS "ESP" Magwell (for better grip location) - for Limited and can be removed. Stippled grips (front and rear) And If I like it, maybe next year I will take the next step, make it full "Limited" (Lighten slide, full Apex trigger system, lighter loads to match slide, recoil springs, etc.) This way I will be shooting similar guns between IDPA and Steel, same sight pictures, grip size, etc. and might be able to use the final product as a backup (ESP only) gun. And will be a heck a lot less expensive than playing in the 1911 space. Long road to get back to where I started - just a tad smarter, no not smarter, just a tad more knowledgeable. Thanks all.

Wow.. thanks for the feed back folks.. guess I have learned: 1. 9mm is the way to go.. cheap to reload, lighter recoil (with the right loads) 2. Current M&P Pro would work fine ... and would help me develop a common sight picture. grip, consistency between multiple disciplines (Steel, IDPA, USPSA, etc.) .. etc. 3. if I want to shoot other divisions, use the M&P . 4. More than 9 round might be a waste of time (unless using for other disciplines) 5. If I want another toy, couple of options a) can use multiple M&P Pro - each tricked out to meet the division single stack 1911 (though somewhat restricted in divisional use and other disciplines) 6. Go and have fun - and don't get caught up in the equipment yet - shoot it, learn it, refine it.. then pick a toy that fits ME! Okay. that said {smiles} ... my desire for a new toy is drawing me to a 1911 9mm - double stack (Para 18.9) or single stack (S&W, Para 9 Pro Comp) and my practical side say.. stick with the M&P Pro, and maybe buy another one, trick it out so it still falls in IDPA ESP and for Steel Limited. {sigh} another decision point. The only draw back I have with the M&P Pro (tricked or not) is the trigger pull - the damn 1911 is so short, smooth, etc. (spoken by an old time stand tall. bulls-eye shooter). Desire vs. practicality terrible choice. Okay, open to thoughts, persuasions, arguments, calls of stupidity, etc. Needless to say, thanks so much for everyone's views, it is very much appreciated - Zack, I hope this has been somewhat helpful to you too! Gratefully, Chuck A

Sorry to bring up an age old, and ongoing debate.. BUT ..I have gotten myself very confused and muddled = ConFudDLED big time. I have been shooting local club IDPA matches with a new S&W M&P 9MM Pro (love it) … Now I want to start playing in the steel world, and though not indigent, don’t want to go into the dollar race (aka race gun) competition. Thus I am looking at Limited (Yes I know I can use the M&P for Production). I Currently own a bevey of pistols include a Springfield 1911 .45., Glocks (17, 19) and assorted revolvers. I am looking to purchase something for Steel, Limited division. In all the reading, forum trolling and listening (You Tube) I am very confused at what I should use for both Limited and Production Steel events. Pistols range from 1911, 2011, Striker/Safe action and the calibers range from 9mm & .40 cal, blah blah blah. I give up guessing, thus I want to reach out to knowledgeable, experienced sources - soooooo, thanks for volunteering! {smiles} So, if you had $800 to $1,000 to spend and want to pick a gun (style and caliber – not necessarily manufacturer) to shoot competitively in Steel, Limited division, what would you choose? As to the Steel, Production division, the same range and question – (hmmm would the S&W M&P in 9mm work well or something else?) I am an experienced pistol shooter (over 40 years), handloader, and dreamer. Did a lot of old time police combat competition (30 years ago) .. but its been a while since I have been shooting competitively with a pistol other than the recent foray into IDPA. Your guidance/thoughts/discussions are gratefully welcome. Thanks.