TaterHead Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 I see this rarely, but it does bug me. Shooter gets load and make ready, and the first thing is putting a mag in the gun before taking it out of the holster. That bug anyone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeti Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 That bug anyone else?Yes. I have seen it done and thought it was odd. Apparently it must work for some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokewagon Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 I see this rarely, but it does bug me. Shooter gets load and make ready, and the first thing is putting a mag in the gun before taking it out of the holster. That bug anyone else? Seen it once, thought it was strange, but it didn't bother me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Seen this also and as long as they don't cock the hammer with the mag inserted and the gun still in the holster, I'm ok with it. I think they are trying to get a practice draw with the gun loaded so the weight is the same. More common is to draw, take a sight picture, insert a mag, back in the holster (as long as it is within 8.1) and then draw/take a sight picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 8.4.1 When loading, reloading or unloading during a course of fire, the competitor’s fingers must be visibly outside the trigger guard and the handgun must be pointed safely down range or in another safe direction authorized by a Range Officer Seeing how the handgun is not pointing downrange I'm going to say that is a no-no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 That's a good point Vlad but he is not "loading, reloading, or unloading". Loading is not completed until ammo is inserted, firearm is in battery and ready to fire. I would say it is not ready to fire at this point so it doesn't fall in the 8.4.1. Besides, pointing down at that point is still in a safe direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 If we continue on talking about rules, we might need to request to move this thread or just create a new one under the Rules section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 That's a good point Vlad but he is not "loading, reloading, or unloading". Loading is not completed until ammo is inserted, firearm is in battery and ready to fire. I would say it is not ready to fire at this point so it doesn't fall in the 8.4.1. Besides, pointing down at that point is still in a safe direction. Loading ............................The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire It may not be completed until you put one in the chamber but ... how about those empty chamber starts? In any case I'd say the moment you start the loading process you are "loading", not when you finish it. Thus, the gun not pointing downrange as required by 8.4.1 is a no-no. I suppose you could get the RO to allow it by asking and then it would be an RO authorized direction, but really .. draw the gun and point it downrange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 I agree, just draw the gun and load it up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) If we are talking USPSA rules: Look in the glossary just above "loading" Loaded Firearm ................A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm. Now we have this to consider: 10.5.11 Holstering a loaded handgun, in any of the following conditions: 10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied. 10.5.11.2 A double action or selective action pistol with the hammer cocked and the safety not applied. so, per the rules: not in 10.5.11.1/2 conditions: insert mag: OK, insert mag with 10.5.11.1/2 conditions: DQ. ETA: I am not sure why anyone would want to do this but then, I normally shoot open and trying to seat a stuffed mag while the gun is in the holster is a sure way to entertain your squad after the beep... Edited May 27, 2015 by ChuckS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 That brings up a good point, on a DA, they would be fine. On a SA, the SA safety can't be applied since it is not cocked. So if it can't be applied, is that really how it should be? I imagine this was not thought of when writing these sections. And I totally understand that, everything can't be thought of and put into the books. I guess I was just thinking about a DA at first since it would be within 8.1, there are no issues. Vlad did bring up a good point about 8.4.1 also so there could be a debate about what is downrange and getting authorization from the RO about safe direction. However, there is no DQ offense related to 8.4.1 that states the same wording so I can't see a DQ from it but it shouldn't be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garmil Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 8.4.1 When loading, reloading or unloading during a course of fire, the competitor’s fingers must be visibly outside the trigger guard and the handgun must be pointed safely down range or in another safe direction authorized by a Range OfficerIs the load and make ready command considered during course of fire though? Wouldn't that be after the beep? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Nope, course of fire starts at "make ready". For example if you drop your gun after make ready welcome to a DQ, if it fall out of the holster before no biggie. Finger in the trigger after make ready is the same deal, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Nope, course of fire starts at "make ready". For example if you drop your gun after make ready welcome to a DQ, if it fall out of the holster before no biggie. Finger in the trigger after make ready is the same deal, etc. Yeah, that's it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garmil Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 So everyone with a holster canted rearward breaks the 180 during course of fire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 So everyone with a holster canted rearward breaks the 180 during course of fire? There is an exception, see this... 10.5.6 While facing downrange, allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to point uprange beyond a radius of 3 feet from a competitor’s feet while drawing or re-holstering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 And that is a very interesting point as well, because if you have a canted holster and you load a mag in the holstered gun, you are now loading pointing the completely wrong way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Loading ............................ It may not be completed until you put one in the chamber but ... how about those empty chamber starts? What empty chamber starts are you referring to? 8.1.4 Unless complying with a Division requirement (see Appendix D), a competitor must not be restricted on the number of rounds to be loaded or reloaded in a handgun. Written stage briefings may only stipulate when the handgun is to be loaded or when mandatory reloads are required (when permitted under Rules 1.1.5.1 and 1.1.5.2). Unless the competitor forgets to rack the slide, the start position is either loaded or unloaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Loading ............................ It may not be completed until you put one in the chamber but ... how about those empty chamber starts? What empty chamber starts are you referring to? 8.1.4 Unless complying with a Division requirement (see Appendix D), a competitor must not be restricted on the number of rounds to be loaded or reloaded in a handgun. Written stage briefings may only stipulate when the handgun is to be loaded or when mandatory reloads are required (when permitted under Rules 1.1.5.1 and 1.1.5.2). Unless the competitor forgets to rack the slide, the start position is either loaded or unloaded. Eh? Read 8.1.3. I think 8.1.4 means I can't stipulate 8 rd in a mag in production, not the condition of your chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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