Help me with my draw and my turns

[evilbeef54]

Hey guys, trying to soak up as much info as possible. I shoot a lot for work but am new to USPSA. I have a Glock 35 that i bought specially for this and just picked up a CR Speed WSM II holster. I made a video to see what kind of tips you guys could give me for speeding up my draw and my turns. On my draw from a surrender position i average about 1.7-1.8 it seems and my turns i average about 2.1. My turns i was having a hard time with until rescently, we always train turning forward not back at work and i was trying to find a good stable and quick was to turn back. I was having issues until one of the guys said to try doing an "about face" type movement. It is very stable, but i would like to be able to pick up speed where every possible, especially since i will be shooting in L10 and Limited. Anyways, be ruthless and brutally honest, i can take it, haha. Where can i improve upon, what am i doing wrong, whewre can i pick up speed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IHmpZLWjlM&feature=youtube_gdata

Edited May 5, 2015 by evilbeef54

[evilbeef54]

here is the draw from head on

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3b5hxHibdw&feature=youtube_gdata

excuse the completely trashed garage, lol

[Sarge]

Both eyes open unless shooting really far or really tight targets.

Get a real timer or figure out a way to get your phone to do random times of between 1 and 4 seconds. Seems all of your beeps were about 5 seconds? too long and the same. Then set par times on the timer and do some drills. I recommend Steve Andersons refinement and repetition drill book. Don't just draw but draw to a par time and keep decreasing the time. Keep in mind that a zone is huge at that distance. All you need is an A hit not a perfect center of the a zone hit.

[evilbeef54]

The beep on the phone is set to random eith in 7 seconds, some times it is longer, sometimes faster, but yeah it tends to be about 5 most of the time, i can decrease the max time, just have it set there so i can get back in position.

I have been working on two eyes open, but typically end up in a half squint on my left eye, trying to improve that. Oh yeah, may have been closing an eye on the head on video cause i was aiming at the gopro lense not a target a zone, lol, good lesson there

I will check out that drill book thanks. I will also try to play with the par time feature too. Any suggestions on speeding up/improving the mechanics of the draw? It seems most of the time i am about 1.75 which seems long as hell

Edited May 5, 2015 by evilbeef54

[gdboytyler]

At the distance you're dry firing, onto a full size target, a sub 1 second draw is very doable. I think you're taking too deliberate of a sight picture before pulling the trigger.

I've got both Ben Stoeger's books and Steve Anderson's dry fire book. I prefer Ben's books by a lot. Ben stresses the fundamentals and has a good explanation on the "why" for techniques and drills.

[CHA-LEE]

I am not sure where you are getting the one shot draw times from but its not matching reality. Watch your video again and use a stop watch to time the draw to break of the shot. Most of your draws are in the 1.00 - 1.20 range but you are calling them out consistently in the 1.70 - 1.90 time frame. If you expect your phone to pick up the "Click" then that is going to be very inconsistent. You would be better off setting a Par time of 1 second then use the second beep to tell you if you are ahead of or behind schedule verses the 1 second Par time.

You have fast enough hands getting to the gun and getting the gun up to the mounted position. Where you are losing time is in a few inefficient movements during the draw. A very good example to look at is your video where you are facing the camera. Look at how much your body and head moves around during the draw. All of that extra movement takes time. You should be able to draw the gun and mount it with the only thing moving being your arms. Your head and upper body should be totally stationary during the draw so you can bring the guns sights to your eye, not bob your head/eye down to the sights.

All of that being said, if you can produce a 1.00 - 1.20 second draw on demand in live fire that is usually "Good Enough" for the vast majority of the USPSA stages you will face. Even if you spend weeks of dry fire to hone your one shot draw down to a .80 - .90 think long and hard about how many real match stage opportunities where you can exploit that type of time gain. The vast majority of USPSA field course stages have you taking a step or two into the first shooting position and you are rarely tasked with "Starting" the shooting within a second. Usually you have 1.5 - 2 seconds worth of movement to get into the first shooting position so your "Rocket Fast Draw" is useless in these instances. You would be better off dry firing stage movement skills as for most shooters this is where they are getting killed by several seconds every stage. Are you losing stages by tenths of a second, or by multiple seconds? If you are getting beat by multiple seconds on every stage, then worrying about how fast your draw is really does not matter.

This sounds harsh, but I am just stating the facts. Too many shooters worry about draws and reloads during dry fire when that is NOT what they are getting beat by in matches.

[bobapunk]

What ap are you using?
I can't hear the start beep, but I agree with CHA-LEE, the time you are reporting seems much slower than what we are seeing.

[evilbeef54]

awesome, thank you for the info. I will have to try that with setting the part I'm and see if that provides better results, I guess that's what I should have expected using a free phone app haha. I have order a dry fire practice book. I appreciate the great info you guys have provided and its not harsh at all I appreciate the honest truth. and honestly USPSA is only part of the reason why I was trying to speed up and smooth out my draws. we do a lot of El Presidente, 6 shots in 6 seconds (with a slide lock reload after the 3rd) at 10 yards from the holster, transition drill type stuff at work so I'm always trying to improve anywhere I can.I see what you're saying about the extra movements and I will definitely try to work on that thank you again

Edited May 5, 2015 by evilbeef54

[Prov1x]

Agree with everything I read above but I don't think your turn and draw technique was ever mentioned.

1) You need to snap your head around to look at the target. You are basically turning your head to the side and then spinning around, almost robotic.

2) I would suggest you pivot off of your right foot instead of your left. You are turning and swinging your right leg all the way around. It is faster to turn off of your strong side, keeping the gun in one position, as you snap your head around and turn to draw.

Keep up the hard work!

for reference, watch Ben's hips and how he turns to get an idea of what I am talking about.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Prov1x

[Gooldylocks]

At that kind of range, onto a full size target, you shouldn't even be looking at the sights. While you are looking at the target, simply be aware that the back of the slide is in the neighborhood of the A zone (black square somewhere kinda in the middle of the brown), and be pulling the trigger.

On the turn and draw, I usually start with my feet very close together, and pivot on my right heel, and the ball of my left foot, snapping my head to the first target. As I pick up my left foot to step forward I am drawing the gun. During a very good turn and draw the first shot should be breaking before you even have set down your foot from the step.

While what CHA-LEE is saying about a blazing fast draw not winning matches is true, it certainly is one of the foundational "classifier" type skills that Andersen talks about in his book quite a lot. Having a 1.2 draw to a 10 yard popper, or a .9 draw to a 7 yard open target kind of thing certainly does help with shooting good classifier scores.

[CHA-LEE]

You guys need to start putting some return on investment logic into "What" you should practice to yield a tangible benefit on match day. Having a .80 second draw, vs a 1.20 second draw that is only utilized on one stage (maybe the classifier stage) is only worth about 3 - 4 match points. Shoot one less Delta on ANY stage and you have made up that margin in "Slower" draw already. Shoot 2 less Delta's and you can get away with a 1.50 second draw.

What I see most B class and below shooters "Donate" in stage time is usually associated with slow, or inefficient movement from one shooting position to the next. If it takes you 1 additional second per shooting position, and most field course stages consist of 2 - 5 shooting positions, that can easily translate to 10 - 15 SECONDS of total wasted stage time in a club match.

Like I said before, If you are losing stages by SECONDS then wasting a bunch of training effort to save .10 - .30 of a second on your draw isn't going to yield much of a difference in your overall match performance. Work on fixing the things that are costing you seconds of wasted time on each stage first. Then worry about the half of a second issues, then finally the tenth of a second issues.

I don't want to poo on anyone's parade. If you want to invest a crap ton of effort and time to get a rock star draw or reload, go for it. Just don't whine when you continue to get your ass handed to you at the matches by the guys that are actually working at fixing skills that are causing multiple seconds of wasted time per stage.

[fuentesd99]

Very well said BIG PANDA

[Sarge]

Very well said BIG PANDA

i think the message was better than the delivery. It was a simple question by a shooter and there was no need to make him or those who offered advice look like dumb asses

[CHA-LEE]

I lack the ability to sugar coat facts or basic skills training logic. The facts are the facts. That and the OP asked for "Brutal Honestly" so that is what he got. If others get butt hurt about hearing honest facts about the situation then its time for a wake up call anyway.

Edited May 5, 2015 by CHA-LEE

[gdboytyler]

You guys need to start putting some return on investment logic into "What" you should practice to yield a tangible benefit on match day. Having a .80 second draw, vs a 1.20 second draw that is only utilized on one stage (maybe the classifier stage) is only worth about 3 - 4 match points. Shoot one less Delta on ANY stage and you have made up that margin in "Slower" draw already. Shoot 2 less Delta's and you can get away with a 1.50 second draw...

So are you advocating practicing a 1.5 sec draw?

National champion (Ben Stoeger) and GM/author Steve Anderson both recommend practicing fast draws and reloads. I'll listen to those guys instead of just another guy on the internets. Don't get butthurt.

[CHA-LEE]

You guys need to start putting some return on investment logic into "What" you should practice to yield a tangible benefit on match day. Having a .80 second draw, vs a 1.20 second draw that is only utilized on one stage (maybe the classifier stage) is only worth about 3 - 4 match points. Shoot one less Delta on ANY stage and you have made up that margin in "Slower" draw already. Shoot 2 less Delta's and you can get away with a 1.50 second draw...

So are you advocating practicing a 1.5 sec draw?

National champion (Ben Stoeger) and GM/author Steve Anderson both recommend practicing fast draws and reloads. I'll listen to those guys instead of just another guy on the internets. Don't get butthurt.

Your head will probably explode with my recommendation in regards to your draw skill question. If a shooter came to me asking to improve their 1.5 second draw but also shot a bunch of crappy points, or wasted several seconds on every single field course stage with crappy movement I would tell them to NOT EVEN WORRY about practicing their draw. They have bigger "Fish to Fry" when it comes to wasting time and points on every single stage they shoot. If you are not shooting 90% - 95% of the points on every stage, having a 1.5 second draw or a .70 second draw isn't going to make much of a difference in overall match standings. The same could be said for donating 2 - 5 seconds every stage in ineffective shooting position to shooting position movement.

Practice the skills that lead you to lose the most overall match points. 99% of the time having a 1.5 second draw isn't costing you the "Most" match points. Its far more likely that a slow draw is one of the things that is costing you the least amount of overall match points.

Oh yeah, if MY skills are in question you are more than welcome to click on the "USPSA L3320" Link in my signature below. Nope, I am not a National Champion or an Author. But I have done my fair share of competing in USPSA matches with decent success.

Edited May 5, 2015 by CHA-LEE

[gdboytyler]

For me, the difference between a 1.0 sec draw (for 7 yd target) and 1.5 sec draw (for 25 yd target) is how much time I spend on the sights (or dot), everything else is the same. I got that notion from Ben's books and easily put it to use with some dry fire practice. The books got me to pay attention to my fundamentals again: marksmanship, draws and reloads. The rest is icing on the cake.

Practicing marksmanship, draws, reloads and one-handed shooting will most definitely improve my scores on classifiers which is a very quantifiable goal. My placing at the local match has more to do with who does or does not show up. I'll worry about match placement later.

Edited May 6, 2015 by gdboytyler

[evilbeef54]

Agree with everything I read above but I don't think your turn and draw technique was ever mentioned.

1) You need to snap your head around to look at the target. You are basically turning your head to the side and then spinning around, almost robotic.

2) I would suggest you pivot off of your right foot instead of your left. You are turning and swinging your right leg all the way around. It is faster to turn off of your strong side, keeping the gun in one position, as you snap your head around and turn to draw.

Keep up the hard work!

for reference, watch Ben's hips and how he turns to get an idea of what I am talking about.

Ok cool, the turn is the biggest area where i feel uncomfortable, i will take any advice i can get on working on that. We work on turn and draw and turn and draw with movement every week at work, however since we are working in a CQC environment with people in a stack behind you they have us turning forward instead of turning behind you. I have been trying several things to get this down for here. I know it is hard to see my foot work in the video just like in Ben's video. What i was doing there was one thing that was suggested to me which is to do an "about face" (military facing movement) i am actucally piviting on my right foot, i take 1/2 step back with the right foot planting my right toe then turning to the right while sweeping my left leg around. I am sure it is not the most efficent and would love as much advice/tips/critique i can get. So far it has been the most stable i have found.

At that kind of range, onto a full size target, you shouldn't even be looking at the sights. While you are looking at the target, simply be aware that the back of the slide is in the neighborhood of the A zone (black square somewhere kinda in the middle of the brown), and be pulling the trigger.

On the turn and draw, I usually start with my feet very close together, and pivot on my right heel, and the ball of my left foot, snapping my head to the first target. As I pick up my left foot to step forward I am drawing the gun. During a very good turn and draw the first shot should be breaking before you even have set down your foot from the step.

While what CHA-LEE is saying about a blazing fast draw not winning matches is true, it certainly is one of the foundational "classifier" type skills that Andersen talks about in his book quite a lot. Having a 1.2 draw to a 10 yard popper, or a .9 draw to a 7 yard open target kind of thing certainly does help with shooting good classifier scores.

I agree totally with getting that first shot off faster with a flash sight picture, i was focusing on a specific piece of tape in the a zone rather than the whole a-zone, trying to make up for the lack of distance i had to work with. Thanks for the info about piviting on your right heal, i will give that a shot. You are picking up your left foot and then setting it back down, not dragging it right? I will give it a shot tomorrow, thanks

You guys need to start putting some return on investment logic into "What" you should practice to yield a tangible benefit on match day. Having a .80 second draw, vs a 1.20 second draw that is only utilized on one stage (maybe the classifier stage) is only worth about 3 - 4 match points. Shoot one less Delta on ANY stage and you have made up that margin in "Slower" draw already. Shoot 2 less Delta's and you can get away with a 1.50 second draw.

What I see most B class and below shooters "Donate" in stage time is usually associated with slow, or inefficient movement from one shooting position to the next. If it takes you 1 additional second per shooting position, and most field course stages consist of 2 - 5 shooting positions, that can easily translate to 10 - 15 SECONDS of total wasted stage time in a club match.

Like I said before, If you are losing stages by SECONDS then wasting a bunch of training effort to save .10 - .30 of a second on your draw isn't going to yield much of a difference in your overall match performance. Work on fixing the things that are costing you seconds of wasted time on each stage first. Then worry about the half of a second issues, then finally the tenth of a second issues.

I don't want to poo on anyone's parade. If you want to invest a crap ton of effort and time to get a rock star draw or reload, go for it. Just don't whine when you continue to get your ass handed to you at the matches by the guys that are actually working at fixing skills that are causing multiple seconds of wasted time per stage.

I completely understand and agree with you on this. I am at a tactical law enforcement unit, one of the lucky few who gets to shoot every week and we run our own range with just our small team so we get to do what we want. Most of our practice is shooting while moving, baracade work, multi target engagement, focal shift type drills, and a ton of slide lock reloads. I am trying to get any improvment skills/drills i can in every aspect of my training, however in this thread i am specifically asking about these skills because a) these are something i can work on easy at home with very little set up b ) because the turn is competely different that what i do every week at work so there is a lot of muscle memory to change (as well as the muscle memory with the different gun/holster) and c) well hell you know how it is, ego is everything and we do a TON of for speed competitions with and with out movement and either all pistol or transitioning from rifle to pistol, and am looking to pick up some speed which will help not only in USPSA but work as well.

I am not saying i dont need more practice in the other areas as well, hell we all need more practice, but i DO get a TON of practice in the other areas with live fire at work, the different gun, different holster, and different direction of turn make this an area i know i can benifit for a few minutes of training nightly at home, this is NOT the only area i practice on or even where i spend the majority of my time, but it is ONE area where i would like advice

Very well said BIG PANDA

i think the message was better than the delivery. It was a simple question by a shooter and there was no need to make him or those who offered advice look like dumb asses

Hell i am an adult i can take it. All of our instructors at the school house and for quals are prior SO guys from various branches so i am used to much worse, it is actually quite refreshing to just get blunt honest info.... as long as it is productive, haha

Thanks everyone for the info, i will put it all to good use and report back

Edited May 6, 2015 by evilbeef54

[Gooldylocks]

I lack the ability to sugar coat facts or basic skills training logic. The facts are the facts. That and the OP asked for "Brutal Honestly" so that is what he got. If others get butt hurt about hearing honest facts about the situation then its time for a wake up call anyway.

But being an ass about the facts, specifically when the facts you are presenting aren't what the OP was specifically asking about (he wasn't asking how to win matches or cut seconds out of his field stage times, he wanted to know how to get a faster turn and draw) doesn't seem super helpful. And, for those of us that aren't losing stages (or matches, for that matter) by SECONDS might be able to glean some useful information from a thread like this on how to speed up our turn and draw.

You are an excellent shooter (I don't believe anyone ever said otherwise), and I'm sure you could provide some insight into a very fast draw, which would be helpful for both the OP and the rest of us non-GM mere mortals. Just saying.

[evilbeef54]

ok fighters back to your corners

lets please keep the side bar stuff to a minimum here. This thread was created looking for advice on one (well actually two) specific skill sets, no one said it was the ONLY area to improve upon, or the BEST area to improve upon. As was said there are areas that have a good impact (that i am already practicing in a practical environment with 60 extra lbs of gear). No one is questioning ANYONE's records here, this is meant to be a place for those of us who want help in a specific area to get advice. Please as this is MY thread lets try to keep it on topic, brutally honest if you must, as that is what i said and i do prefer honesty over trying to feign some sort of niceness and trying to imagine how others feel over textual communications. that being said it should be kept ON TOPIC please, brutally honest IF you have helpful input for this specific skill set, haha

Edited May 6, 2015 by evilbeef54

[Sarge]

You are right. If you like being talked down to its not my place to try to help out.

Good luck and enjoy!

[Nimitz]

You guys need to start putting some return on investment logic into "What" you should practice to yield a tangible benefit on match day. Having a .80 second draw, vs a 1.20 second draw that is only utilized on one stage (maybe the classifier stage) is only worth about 3 - 4 match points. Shoot one less Delta on ANY stage and you have made up that margin in "Slower" draw already. Shoot 2 less Delta's and you can get away with a 1.50 second draw...

So are you advocating practicing a 1.5 sec draw?

National champion (Ben Stoeger) and GM/author Steve Anderson both recommend practicing fast draws and reloads. I'll listen to those guys instead of just another guy on the internets. Don't get butthurt.

Your head will probably explode with my recommendation in regards to your draw skill question. If a shooter came to me asking to improve their 1.5 second draw but also shot a bunch of crappy points, or wasted several seconds on every single field course stage with crappy movement I would tell them to NOT EVEN WORRY about practicing their draw. They have bigger "Fish to Fry" when it comes to wasting time and points on every single stage they shoot. If you are not shooting 90% - 95% of the points on every stage, having a 1.5 second draw or a .70 second draw isn't going to make much of a difference in overall match standings. The same could be said for donating 2 - 5 seconds every stage in ineffective shooting position to shooting position movement.

Practice the skills that lead you to lose the most overall match points. 99% of the time having a 1.5 second draw isn't costing you the "Most" match points. Its far more likely that a slow draw is one of the things that is costing you the least amount of overall match points.

Oh yeah, if MY skills are in question you are more than welcome to click on the "USPSA L3320" Link in my signature below. Nope, I am not a National Champion or an Author. But I have done my fair share of competing in USPSA matches with decent success.

You guys need to start putting some return on investment logic into "What" you should practice to yield a tangible benefit on match day. Having a .80 second draw, vs a 1.20 second draw that is only utilized on one stage (maybe the classifier stage) is only worth about 3 - 4 match points. Shoot one less Delta on ANY stage and you have made up that margin in "Slower" draw already. Shoot 2 less Delta's and you can get away with a 1.50 second draw...

So are you advocating practicing a 1.5 sec draw?

National champion (Ben Stoeger) and GM/author Steve Anderson both recommend practicing fast draws and reloads. I'll listen to those guys instead of just another guy on the internets. Don't get butthurt.

Your head will probably explode with my recommendation in regards to your draw skill question. If a shooter came to me asking to improve their 1.5 second draw but also shot a bunch of crappy points, or wasted several seconds on every single field course stage with crappy movement I would tell them to NOT EVEN WORRY about practicing their draw. They have bigger "Fish to Fry" when it comes to wasting time and points on every single stage they shoot. If you are not shooting 90% - 95% of the points on every stage, having a 1.5 second draw or a .70 second draw isn't going to make much of a difference in overall match standings. The same could be said for donating 2 - 5 seconds every stage in ineffective shooting position to shooting position movement.

Practice the skills that lead you to lose the most overall match points. 99% of the time having a 1.5 second draw isn't costing you the "Most" match points. Its far more likely that a slow draw is one of the things that is costing you the least amount of overall match points.

Oh yeah, if MY skills are in question you are more than welcome to click on the "USPSA L3320" Link in my signature below. Nope, I am not a National Champion or an Author. But I have done my fair share of competing in USPSA matches with decent success.

So I've trained with both Ben & Steve and while they both will certainly show you how you can develop a sub 1 sec draw and 1 sec reload, if you dermonstrate the types of skills (or lack of skills) Cha-lee is talking about in one of their classess I can promise you that they will tell you the last thing you should be working on in dryfire is draws and reloads ....

Now if you want to get your GM card you're certainly going to need reasonably fast draws and reloads, however, if you want to actually BE a GM you're going to need those movement skills ....

[gdboytyler]

So I've trained with both Ben & Steve and while they both will certainly show you how you can develop a sub 1 sec draw and 1 sec reload, if you dermonstrate the types of skills (or lack of skills) Cha-lee is talking about in one of their classess I can promise you that they will tell you the last thing you should be working on in dryfire is draws and reloads ....

Now if you want to get your GM card you're certainly going to need reasonably fast draws and reloads, however, if you want to actually BE a GM you're going to need those movement skills ....

I seriously doubt either instructor would say, "you've got a slow draw, stop practicing it". I can believe the instructor telling the student to spend X% of practice time on basic classifier skills and Y% on field course skills.

In Ben's and Steve's dryfire books, most of the movement drills start with a DRAW.

I think most of the people watching the OP's video would agree he's spending too much time looking at the sights before pulling the trigger. I bet the same thing will happen if he drops the draw practice and goes into movement drills. It would be easier to fix that problem from a static position.

Now the OP did mention he was aiming at certain point on the target and that's why he was slow on the trigger. I'd recommend getting targets scaled down to whatever distance you want to practice. I like using the 1/3 scale targets. Therefore if you want to practice a 10 yard shot, place the target at 10 ft, etc.

Edited May 6, 2015 by gdboytyler

[CHA-LEE]

I think its funny that some people on this thread act like I am not providing any help to the OP. For those people, reread Post #6. My recommendation to eliminated all of the wasted body & head movement is all this guy needs to get consistent sub 1 second draws. I am also giving him some valid recommendations on using a par time instead of trying to capture the "Click" of the gun using a cell phone app.

These recommendations can be applied to anyone in their quest for a sub 1 second draw.

I still stand behind the facts that I stated beyond that. If you are not ready to hear those valid skills practice facts, then good luck figuring it out on your own.

[dossauce]

I agree with both sides of the argument (not that it matters). Let's lay it to rest. Do you need to have good consistent draws and reloads to be a GM... yes. Is it the biggest factor holding a shooter back from doing well at a match... heck no... unless you are an M/A class shooter that is deficient in that area. That being said you will need that skill later down the road to make the bump to GM so should you practice it... YES. Do it as a warm up for your dry fire every day, don't hang up on it until its perfect. Anywho, enough rambling, I think the argument is at its' conclusion.

Efficiency of movement is a big deal. This was something I worked on alot and I'm not just talking about in a stage. I naturally (because of my age) can move well, but there are plenty of people who move better.

As for the draw, break it down into parts, analyze your movement. For me on a surrender draw I start with my off hand in a consistent place every time (for me it's my thumb under the bill of my hat by my temple. Build a system of consistency, then it'll be subconscious.

For my draw hand it starts off on the gun. I feel the perfect grip (for me I index again with my thumb on the inside of my holster...consistency!)

Then I rotate my draw arm only at the elbow, why? Efficiency of movement. The less body parts I have to move during any movement = faster times and most importantly, consistency.

Try it and see what you think. You can apply it to any type of draw.