S&W 929 Cylinder Lockup Issues

[ktm400]

Second load extracted fine

2.9gr N320

160 Bayou RN

1.145 OAL

No Chrono yet on either load

Same load w 2.6 GR N320 made 115 PF, 2.7 GR made 120 PF. So that's probably right in the ball park. How's accuracy? Are you using the 9mm or.357 Bayous?[/quote

Accuracy is very good with either bullet (147 Xtreme or the 160 Bayou). I compare this to my 627 in SC where occasionally I would get unexplained outliers. Probably leaning towards using N320 with the 160 Bayou but will probably also to YTD 147 plated with N320 too. Will post chrono results soon in prep for the IN STATE Match.

[daddy9er]

Shot 200 rds thru new 929 chrono 8 shots avg 926 fps used 4.4 gr WSF win brass fed primer 147 jacketed. Only 55 degrees in Iowa and standing in water but no problems with gun or ammo. Need grip change and practice ready for April matches.

[daddy9er]

I forgot to mention this losd is .2gr more than I use in my XDM but all components and OAL the same.

[BallisticianX]

The root issue here is going to be the internal polish (or lack there of) on the cylinder. Titanium is a tricky metal to work with and is most unforgiving during machining. So consistent surface conditions is rather hard to maintain from piece to piece without a lot of care in tooling replacement intervals and setup. Sharp and very durable tooling is a must with titanium such as carbide. Titanium incurs a lot of wear from piece to piece on tooling as compared to most steels. With the cost of tooling S&W is no different than anyone else in trying to push its life expectancy of which is beyond what it should be. So you get a cylinder with fresh tooling you get a good cut, get one on the over extended use of said tool you get a rougher cut. It comes down to which one you get. That is why this is occurring but not consistently with every cylinder. Adding to this is the lack of chamfer on the charge holes. That 2/3rds of titanium that makes up the charge hole edge is left sharp (only the extraction rod area is chamfered). Mine was like a razor actually. That edge is gonna bite into the expanding case like a knife. Now to further exacerbate the situation the chamber pressure is going to dictate the cases expansion against the smooth or rougher cylinder walls and charge hole edge. Therefore now factor in bullet weight and burn rate of the powder. For example the guy with the smooth cylinder shooting loads with say Unique behind a 124 is having no problems. The poor bastard shooting the rough cylinder with Titegroup behind a 147 is impaling his palm with the ejection rod. Simple fix is to send the cylinder out for a full charge hole chamfer and internal polish by a good revolver guy.

[peterthefish]

The root issue here is going to be the internal polish (or lack there of) on the cylinder. Titanium is a tricky metal to work with and is most unforgiving during machining. So consistent surface conditions is rather hard to maintain from piece to piece without a lot of care in tooling replacement intervals and setup. Sharp and very durable tooling is a must with titanium such as carbide. Titanium incurs a lot of wear from piece to piece on tooling as compared to most steels. With the cost of tooling S&W is no different than anyone else in trying to push its life expectancy of which is beyond what it should be. So you get a cylinder with fresh tooling you get a good cut, get one on the over extended use of said tool you get a rougher cut. It comes down to which one you get. That is why this is occurring but not consistently with every cylinder. Adding to this is the lack of chamfer on the charge holes. That 2/3rds of titanium that makes up the charge hole edge is left sharp (only the extraction rod area is chamfered). Mine was like a razor actually. That edge is gonna bite into the expanding case like a knife. Now to further exacerbate the situation the chamber pressure is going to dictate the cases expansion against the smooth or rougher cylinder walls and charge hole edge. Therefore now factor in bullet weight and burn rate of the powder. For example the guy with the smooth cylinder shooting loads with say Unique behind a 124 is having no problems. The poor bastard shooting the rough cylinder with Titegroup behind a 147 is impaling his palm with the ejection rod. Simple fix is to send the cylinder out for a full charge hole chamfer and internal polish by a good revolver guy.

How many 929s have you examined to come to this conclusion? Have you worked for S&W, or do you just assume they're cutting corners on tooling? S&W instructs one not to use abrasives on the cylinder lest you remove the protective finish exposing the base Ti? Polishing the chambers would remove that finish - not a good thing in my book.

And who hits the ejector rod with their Palm?

Edited March 18, 2015 by peterthefish

[seanc]

How many 929s have you examined to come to this conclusion? Have you worked for S&W, or do you just assume they're cutting corners on tooling? S&W instructs one not to use abrasives on the cylinder lest you remove the protective finish exposing the base Ti? Polishing the chambers would remove that finish - not a good thing in my book.

And who hits the ejector rod with their Palm?

lentz, olhasso, leatham, to name a few. basically everyone that I see doing a weakhand reload...strong hand stays on the gun, weak hand does the reload.

I am a relic that does miculek style and thumb them out...

edit...took out cliff. I was recalling a video I saw him doing both which at least from a few videos I've watched he can do both equally adeptly and depending on direction of movement may opt for one over the other based on body position and where the muzzle will be pointing. That is just speculation though on my part...

Edited March 18, 2015 by seanc

[peterthefish]

And who hits the ejector rod with their Palm?

lentz, olhasso, walsh, leatham, to name a few. basically everyone that I see doing a weakhand reload...strong hand stays on the gun, weak hand does the reload.

I am a relic that does miculek style and thumb them out...

I do the same - I thought the weak hand reload was the relic... I'll have to pull some video of Olhasso...

[seanc]

And who hits the ejector rod with their Palm?

lentz, olhasso, walsh, leatham, to name a few. basically everyone that I see doing a weakhand reload...strong hand stays on the gun, weak hand does the reload.

I am a relic that does miculek style and thumb them out...

I do the same - I thought the weak hand reload was the relic... I'll have to pull some video of Olhasso...

Dave makes a compelling arguement for doing it that way, there are a couple subtle things going on when Dave does it that you will not see in a video though.

He's teaching that steel class next month before the PSA shoot in pennsylvania, recommended...

I started doing it the jerry way when I started and have done a countless number in dry fire and live practice that I am hyper invested and unwilling to invest in another way. Like dave, I am sure jerry is doing(seeing) a couple subtle things that are not going to be apparent on video(and I've studied them all...) but its not been revealed to me....

[peterthefish]

And who hits the ejector rod with their Palm?

lentz, olhasso, walsh, leatham, to name a few. basically everyone that I see doing a weakhand reload...strong hand stays on the gun, weak hand does the reload.

I am a relic that does miculek style and thumb them out...

I do the same - I thought the weak hand reload was the relic... I'll have to pull some video of Olhasso...

Dave makes a compelling arguement for doing it that way, there are a couple subtle things going on when Dave does it that you will not see in a video though.

He's teaching that steel class next month before the PSA shoot in pennsylvania, recommended...

I started doing it the jerry way when I started and have done a countless number in dry fire and live practice that I am hyper invested and unwilling to invest in another way. Like dave, I am sure jerry is doing(seeing) a couple subtle things that are not going to be apparent on video(and I've studied them all...) but its not been revealed to me....

I was actually planning to shoot PSA Thur / Fri and probably hit this class as well, but was late on the draw and by the time I went to register only one slot was open. Next year I guess...

[BallisticianX]

The root issue here is going to be the internal polish (or lack there of) on the cylinder. Titanium is a tricky metal to work with and is most unforgiving during machining. So consistent surface conditions is rather hard to maintain from piece to piece without a lot of care in tooling replacement intervals and setup. Sharp and very durable tooling is a must with titanium such as carbide. Titanium incurs a lot of wear from piece to piece on tooling as compared to most steels. With the cost of tooling S&W is no different than anyone else in trying to push its life expectancy of which is beyond what it should be. So you get a cylinder with fresh tooling you get a good cut, get one on the over extended use of said tool you get a rougher cut. It comes down to which one you get. That is why this is occurring but not consistently with every cylinder. Adding to this is the lack of chamfer on the charge holes. That 2/3rds of titanium that makes up the charge hole edge is left sharp (only the extraction rod area is chamfered). Mine was like a razor actually. That edge is gonna bite into the expanding case like a knife. Now to further exacerbate the situation the chamber pressure is going to dictate the cases expansion against the smooth or rougher cylinder walls and charge hole edge. Therefore now factor in bullet weight and burn rate of the powder. For example the guy with the smooth cylinder shooting loads with say Unique behind a 124 is having no problems. The poor bastard shooting the rough cylinder with Titegroup behind a 147 is impaling his palm with the ejection rod. Simple fix is to send the cylinder out for a full charge hole chamfer and internal polish by a good revolver guy.

How many 929s have you examined to come to this conclusion? Have you worked for S&W, or do you just assume they're cutting corners on tooling? S&W instructs one not to use abrasives on the cylinder lest you remove the protective finish exposing the base Ti? Polishing the chambers would remove that finish - not a good thing in my book.

And who hits the ejector rod with their Palm?

I have been in contact with about 6 of them. If you were a machinists you would know how you can look at a cut and tell if the tooling is dull. Therefore if the cut indicates dull its one of two things, 1. the tooling is low quality to begin with 2. the tooling has dulled and is no longer cutting but rather gouging and smearing. Thats how you can conclude the tooling is not being replaced when it should. I do not work for S&W but anyone with machining experience can figure this out. As far as not using abrasives to cut through to the base Ti....the pressure wash from shooting it is going to do that. Ti cylinders have been polished and chamfered since they came out....no one reporting any problems that I know of. As far as palming the ejector rod...weak hand reloads.

I have arrived at another conclusion........you obviously have no idea whats going on in the revolver competition world!

[Carmoney]

Cliff can reload well either way, but is faster when he switches his gun to his weak hand and loads with his strong hand. He will occasionally load weak-hand during a match.

Dave's reloads are not at all graceful--it always looks like he's slamming the gun open and and shut much harder than necessary--but he certainly gets the job done well, and you never see his empty moonclips hanging up on the extractor.

The original masters of the weak-hand reload were Bjorn Dietrich from the Netherlands and Dan Carden from Cali. I switched from FBI-style to the Dan/Spook method years ago and will never go back. I much prefer the control and safety of keeping the gun firmly in my shooting hand. The only time I remember reverting back to FBI was on Dave W.'s stage at the Sunflower Classic, when I lost most of my moonclips (this was pre-North Mountain era) and had to grab one from my emergency post on the right side to finish the last array. I didn't have time to think about it, it just happened subconsciously.

Rob's reload is notable in that he keeps his moonclips clear out on his left hip, and tends to perform the loading process further out in front, rather than bringing the gun down to his beltline like most of us. It works very well for him.

[peterthefish]

I have been in contact with about 6 of them. If you were a machinists you would know how you can look at a cut and tell if the tooling is dull. Therefore if the cut indicates dull its one of two things, 1. the tooling is low quality to begin with 2. the tooling has dulled and is no longer cutting but rather gouging and smearing. Thats how you can conclude the tooling is not being replaced when it should. I do not work for S&W but anyone with machining experience can figure this out. As far as not using abrasives to cut through to the base Ti....the pressure wash from shooting it is going to do that. Ti cylinders have been polished and chamfered since they came out....no one reporting any problems that I know of. As far as palming the ejector rod...weak hand reloads.

I have arrived at another conclusion........you obviously have no idea whats going on in the revolver competition world!

The pressure wash? Tell me more. Never heard of this phenom?

[BallisticianX]

I have been in contact with about 6 of them. If you were a machinists you would know how you can look at a cut and tell if the tooling is dull. Therefore if the cut indicates dull its one of two things, 1. the tooling is low quality to begin with 2. the tooling has dulled and is no longer cutting but rather gouging and smearing. Thats how you can conclude the tooling is not being replaced when it should. I do not work for S&W but anyone with machining experience can figure this out. As far as not using abrasives to cut through to the base Ti....the pressure wash from shooting it is going to do that. Ti cylinders have been polished and chamfered since they came out....no one reporting any problems that I know of. As far as palming the ejector rod...weak hand reloads.

I have arrived at another conclusion........you obviously have no idea whats going on in the revolver competition world!

The pressure wash? Tell me more. Never heard of this phenom?

Pressure wash aka gas cutting is a form of mechanical erosion resulting from the hot gases under pressure penetrating the grain structure of the metal and wearing it away. With the powder fouling mixed in you add an abrasive condition to help it along like a sandblaster. Surely you have heard of the throats of barrels eroding out after awhile. That is the phenom of pressure wash erosion. It is more extreme in rifle cartridges but exists on a less lethal level in handgun cartridges as well. The surfaces in chambers, fronts of cylinders, throats, and forcing cones are the most affected areas. With excessive use the lands in the rifling will eventually suffer as well which is more common in rifles vs handguns. This phenom of erosion is more frequent in higher pressure cartridges of course. In the case of a handgun your 9mm, 40, 357 will show signs of erosion quicker than lower pressure cartridges such as the 38 spcl and 45acp. As I said the erosion in a handgun is less extreme than rifles. A handgun will take alot of shooting to erode away metal to the point of accuracy loss. But any surface treatments or coatings will be eroded out in a short period of time. To demonstrate this if you have some older and newer blued revolvers take them out and take a look at a barrel and cylinder area. You will notice the leading edge of the barrel into the forcing cone is rounded and the the bluing on the cylinder face is gone on the well used revo and the new one has a sharper edge and still blued on the cylinder face. That's pressure wash erosion.

Getting back to the Ti polishing, it just that a light polish with a 1200 grit lapping compound to knock down the rough high spots. Your not hogging out material and removing the entire surface treatment. Exposed Ti will react with the air to form a light corrosion on the surface through a chemical reaction. So the very little exposed Ti will seal itself in a manner of speaking. This has been done to Ti cylinders in comp revo's since there inception. Bottom line is if its causing problems you have to address it to work as intended somehow. If spent cases stick on ejection it cant be relied upon for any kind of use where 10ths of seconds count. This is the accepted option to fix it.....

[peterthefish]

I have been in contact with about 6 of them. If you were a machinists you would know how you can look at a cut and tell if the tooling is dull. Therefore if the cut indicates dull its one of two things, 1. the tooling is low quality to begin with 2. the tooling has dulled and is no longer cutting but rather gouging and smearing. Thats how you can conclude the tooling is not being replaced when it should. I do not work for S&W but anyone with machining experience can figure this out. As far as not using abrasives to cut through to the base Ti....the pressure wash from shooting it is going to do that. Ti cylinders have been polished and chamfered since they came out....no one reporting any problems that I know of. As far as palming the ejector rod...weak hand reloads.

I have arrived at another conclusion........you obviously have no idea whats going on in the revolver competition world!

The pressure wash? Tell me more. Never heard of this phenom?

Pressure wash aka gas cutting is a form of mechanical erosion resulting from the hot gases under pressure penetrating the grain structure of the metal and wearing it away. With the powder fouling mixed in you add an abrasive condition to help it along like a sandblaster. Surely you have heard of the throats of barrels eroding out after awhile. That is the phenom of pressure wash erosion. It is more extreme in rifle cartridges but exists on a less lethal level in handgun cartridges as well. The surfaces in chambers, fronts of cylinders, throats, and forcing cones are the most affected areas. With excessive use the lands in the rifling will eventually suffer as well which is more common in rifles vs handguns. This phenom of erosion is more frequent in higher pressure cartridges of course. In the case of a handgun your 9mm, 40, 357 will show signs of erosion quicker than lower pressure cartridges such as the 38 spcl and 45acp. As I said the erosion in a handgun is less extreme than rifles. A handgun will take alot of shooting to erode away metal to the point of accuracy loss. But any surface treatments or coatings will be eroded out in a short period of time. To demonstrate this if you have some older and newer blued revolvers take them out and take a look at a barrel and cylinder area. You will notice the leading edge of the barrel into the forcing cone is rounded and the the bluing on the cylinder face is gone on the well used revo and the new one has a sharper edge and still blued on the cylinder face. That's pressure wash erosion.

Getting back to the Ti polishing, it just that a light polish with a 1200 grit lapping compound to knock down the rough high spots. Your not hogging out material and removing the entire surface treatment. Exposed Ti will react with the air to form a light corrosion on the surface through a chemical reaction. So the very little exposed Ti will seal itself in a manner of speaking. This has been done to Ti cylinders in comp revo's since there inception. Bottom line is if its causing problems you have to address it to work as intended somehow. If spent cases stick on ejection it cant be relied upon for any kind of use where 10ths of seconds count. This is the accepted option to fix it.....

Familiar with the throat erosion - never heard it called pressure wash before... Either way, thats the accepted method for a steel cylinder is are heat treated. The TI cylinders are not the same animal, and the surface treatment is crucial to wear resistance. The treatment is not "eroded out in a short period of time". I've never seen a Ti cylinder erode from flame cutting with the exception of those who ignore manufacturer recommendations to not shoot 125 GR and below 357 loads.

The treatment is only about 100 mm thick - any removal of high spots will cut through the treatment. If you do this to any part of the cylinder near or beyond the case mouth you will see very rapid erosion of the untreated material. The thickness and durability of the oxidation layer that will form through atmospheric oxidation is inadequate protection against flame cutting.

If someone gets a poorly cut cylinder from S&W, better advice would be that they should return it unless they have the knowledge and ability to treat it after any surfaces are altered.

[BallisticianX]

You are correct. My apologies for leaving out the specifics of what is polished. You polish 75% of the area in contact with the case from the top down. The remaining 25% of the area at the case mouth is left alone as the taper of the 9mm case at the mouth gives you extra clearance to mitigate binding in that particular position. The upper >75% is where there is less clearance of case to cylinder wall and where rough surface conditions will be more likely to bite into the case. The throat and the lead to it are not touched of which is where the gas and pressure are in direct contact with the cylinder walls. Also the portion on the charge hole that is the actual Ti cylinder surface (about 2/3rds of the circumference) is a culprit as it is left without a chamfer or debured on these cylinders giving it a very sharp edge to dig in the case. I was surprised how sharp it is from the factory....it is really like a razor's edge. If you fully chamfer the charge holes the natural oxidation to that exposed Ti surface will be suitable protection for that area. The binding problems would be eliminated or at least substantially reduced if S&W fully chamfered the charge holes from the factory as they imply in there broad statement of "it comes with chamfered charge holes" rather than just the 1/3rd of the circumference that is the extractor.

I conveyed this lack of chamfer to S&W on a conference call regarding this a week ago. They gave me no reason as to why the Ti couldn't be done so a assume its just an extra step not done to reduce time and machining etc. My personal opinion is that the 929 should come with a SS cylinder and a 5" barrel for a compromise to the weight and flexibility for competition modifications.....after all it is a competition purposed model.

[PatJones]

My personal opinion is that the 929 should come with a SS cylinder and a 5" barrel for a compromise to the weight and flexibility for competition modifications.....after all it is a competition purposed model.

The titanium reduces the problem of the cylinder notches peening. I'd fit TI cylinders to my 625 and 627 if they were available.

[BallisticianX]

I have put 300,000 rounds out of my 686+ and I bought it used from a very active steel shooter....I bet this thing is closing in 1/2 of a million rounds. No problems with peening on the SS cylinder. I shoot the crap out of all my revos and never had any concerns. If it's correctly timed you wont. The purpose of the Ti cylinder was to shed weight to speed up lock time. I dont notice much of a difference.

[peterthefish]

I have put 300,000 rounds out of my 686+ and I bought it used from a very active steel shooter....I bet this thing is closing in 1/2 of a million rounds. No problems with peening on the SS cylinder. I shoot the crap out of all my revos and never had any concerns. If it's correctly timed you wont. The purpose of the Ti cylinder was to shed weight to speed up lock time. I dont notice much of a difference.

300,000 rounds? How many rounds a year do you shoot?

[Carmoney]

I have put 300,000 rounds out of my 686+ and I bought it used from a very active steel shooter....I bet this thing is closing in 1/2 of a million rounds. No problems with peening on the SS cylinder. I shoot the crap out of all my revos and never had any concerns. If it's correctly timed you wont. The purpose of the Ti cylinder was to shed weight to speed up lock time. I dont notice much of a difference.

The peening issue is extremely well-documented here on the forum. I'm not going to rehash it here, other than to point out that it has nothing whatsoever to do with timing.

[Pete Whyte]

Could the ti cylinder be changed to a stainless cylinder? Would that fix the problem? Pete

[peterthefish]

Could the ti cylinder be changed to a stainless cylinder? Would that fix the problem? Pete

OP never really got back to the thread to talk about this issue, which as described in initial posts frankly didn't make much sense.

If you have sticky ejection, I'd double check load data first and if it's good then send it back to S&W.

So I'd say there's not really an issue to solve with a stainless cylinder. Of course, if you wanted to no reason you couldn't rechamber and cut down a 627 cylinder.

[seanc]

I have put 300,000 rounds out of my 686+ and I bought it used from a very active steel shooter....I bet this thing is closing in 1/2 of a million rounds. No problems with peening on the SS cylinder. I shoot the crap out of all my revos and never had any concerns. If it's correctly timed you wont. The purpose of the Ti cylinder was to shed weight to speed up lock time. I dont notice much of a difference.

Could the ti cylinder be changed to a stainless cylinder? Would that fix the problem? Pete

OP never really got back to the thread to talk about this issue, which as described in initial posts frankly didn't make much sense.

If you have sticky ejection, I'd double check load data first and if it's good then send it back to S&W.

So I'd say there's not really an issue to solve with a stainless cylinder. Of course, if you wanted to no reason you couldn't rechamber and cut down a 627 cylinder.

What S&W thinks is ok and what you think are OK are going to differ. By all means send it back, maybe you will get an in spec cylinder but it will still have a 90 ledge that interferes with both loading and unloading.

sure, always check load data, but 9mm is not magic, there is a LONG list of defacto production loads that are nowhere near any pressure limit yet these loads stick in 929's and fail to make 125 PF to boot. Its not a load problem.

I agree 100% that S&W should be the ones to make it right though, but I personally don't have the patience for it. I'll pay my gunsmith to fix it, if it means the part wears out faster, so what. Guns are tools that wear out, parts need replacing, so what.

The cost of guns and parts for guns is a drop in the bucket compared to ammo costs anyways, the moving parts in the gun are just another consumable.

I had an M&P that was laughably inaccurate, like 5" groups at 7 yards. I sent it back to them, they sent it back with a note "within specification".

[KnurlingTurtle]

I'm having sticky extraction in my 929.

115g plated rn bullets

4.0gn E3

fed match spp

starline brass

I've shot a few hundred rounds over a couple months with no issue right out of the box. I was trying to decide if I was going to do the trigger job and replace springs or send it to Apex to work it over. I'm not confident in my abilities and the parts aren't easily replaceable if I mess something up so I've decided it's going to be sent it off for the tune up.

I've since decided I want to buy a place with acreage and put myself on a self-imposed spending freeze which means my 929 is on hold.

Last week I took it out and it wouldn't extract after the first moon. The cylinder bound up during the second moon. Apparently the yolk screw had worked loose and the cylinder and crane came completely off during cleaning. Oops, I put some blue Loctite on the screw after finishing the cleaning.

I went to the range yesterday and found the same extraction issue. It made me cuss.

I didn't have any factory ammo or other loads to test but extraction wasn't an issue with the exact same load a couple of months ago.

Thoughts on why it was running fine and now I'm having this issue?

[MWP]

I'm having sticky extraction in my 929.

115g plated rn bullets

4.0gn E3

fed match spp

starline brass

I've shot a few hundred rounds over a couple months with no issue right out of the box. I was trying to decide if I was going to do the trigger job and replace springs or send it to Apex to work it over. I'm not confident in my abilities and the parts aren't easily replaceable if I mess something up so I've decided it's going to be sent it off for the tune up.

I've since decided I want to buy a place with acreage and put myself on a self-imposed spending freeze which means my 929 is on hold.

Last week I took it out and it wouldn't extract after the first moon. The cylinder bound up during the second moon. Apparently the yolk screw had worked loose and the cylinder and crane came completely off during cleaning. Oops, I put some blue Loctite on the screw after finishing the cleaning.

I went to the range yesterday and found the same extraction issue. It made me cuss.

I didn't have any factory ammo or other loads to test but extraction wasn't an issue with the exact same load a couple of months ago.

Thoughts on why it was running fine and now I'm having this issue?

Welcome to the club!

[Gregg K]

Thoughts on why it was running fine and now I'm having this issue?

Around here there has been a big temperature change between now and 2 months ago. Did you chrono any loads back then and now?

Edited March 28, 2015 by Gregg K