Vanniek71 Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Hey all, I know my holster is legal, but I wanted to clarify one part of the Production division holster rule regarding the drop on the holster/hanger It states " A holster with the heel of the butt of handgun below the top of the belt, except as specified in Appendix D, or otherwise indicated in Rule 5.2.8 is not permitted." What is the heel of the but of the gun? Is it the entire backstrap? Or just the bottom of the backstrap closest to the magwell? I've attached a pic my setup and am not 100% sure it's legal how I have it set up. Wondering if I need to raise it just a bit to be within the rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkreutz Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 The heel is the bottom part of the backstrap as you suspected, your picture looks legal to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 agreed. Looks fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanniek71 Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 Awesome thanks guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caspian_45 Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 For further clarification. Guns with magwells, the magwell is not the heel of the gun. Also check that you are less than 2 inch from the inside of the inner most belt to the firearm. I see a lot of holsters NOT in compliance with this rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoshidaex Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Caspian_45 You're referring to rule 5.2.7.2 Where does it state the magwell is not part of the gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 I'd say if the mag well is attached to the gun it is certainly part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanniek71 Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 It's a moot point for Production... Magwells aren't allowed anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 It's a moot point for Production... Magwells aren't allowed anyways. That is certainly true! But bad info is bad info and there are those of us who have asked this before for open limited etc and told magwell counts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uzi Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 hello ipsc rules book have photo of this one in app. e3b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caspian_45 Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 I got that from Amidon. He stated that the magwell was a add-on part. The theory is that someone could make the magwell extend back as far as they wanted so that they could drop the height of the holstered gun down. I don't find anywhere stating the measurement is to the magwell. I am going off what I was told by the DNROI. Troy may have a different take on it. YMMV And yes I know magwells aren't allowed in production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 I got that from Amidon. Troy may have a different take on it. . And that would be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caspian_45 Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 I agree Sarge. I got different info than you on the magwell is in or out. It's not the first time I've heard the " I was told this and this guy was told that". It is sad that rules are written and then the loopholes are brought to light. Of course this is just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanniek71 Posted February 22, 2015 Author Share Posted February 22, 2015 I got that from Amidon. He stated that the magwell was a add-on part. The theory is that someone could make the magwell extend back as far as they wanted so that they could drop the height of the holstered gun down. I don't find anywhere stating the measurement is to the magwell. I am going off what I was told by the DNROI. Troy may have a different take on it. YMMV And yes I know magwells aren't allowed in production. Right but my question was about production. I'm all for sharing info and all that but that's a limited/open deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 I agree Sarge. I got different info than you on the magwell is in or out. It's not the first time I've heard the " I was told this and this guy was told that". It is sad that rules are written and then the loopholes are brought to light. Of course this is just my opinion. That's why amidon should have gone to the trouble of making it an official ruling and getting it updated in the rule book. The logic I had explained was that you really can't tell exactly where the heel is if there is a magwell on the gun. You can guess only. But you can clearly see where the magwell extends to. You're right though. There are a lot of opinions on the rules from those we should be getting clear info from. Probably no way to fix it 100% as long as we have multiple RM's, RMI's, new DNROI's every now and then. Best fix is to print it in the rule book probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caspian_45 Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Van sorry to step on your post. I was adding some info that others might have wanted. Guess it wasn't expected or needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 For further clarification. Guns with magwells, the magwell is not the heel of the gun. Also check that you are less than 2 inch from the inside of the inner most belt to the firearm. I see a lot of holsters NOT in compliance with this rule. Especially Bladetech DOH hanger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 I have a bud who got approached during a club match at a club in Illinois and told his holster (Open shooter) was too low because of the heel of the gun and magwell confusion. When he shot a major at the same club, he noticed there was a mark next to his name and one of the ROs specifically walked up to him and told him to adjust his holster--without looking at it first. When he protested, the "order" was reinforced. No one else in the squad was given this treatment. Two things for which I'm advocating: 1) A rule written into the rulebook on what constitutes the "heel of the gun" on an Open, Limited, and Single Stack gun with a magwell. 2) A rule written into the regulations governing a major match requiring an equipment check for each competitor prior to each match day's first stage briefing being given, with a five-minute period to fix any discrepancies--I also believe this will necessitate a safe area at each stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 I'm not sure how you could say it wasn't part of the gun with a one piece like an S&A. After all, John Browning put a mainspring housing in the 1911. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parallax3D Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) That's why amidon should have gone to the trouble of making it an official ruling and getting it updated in the rule book. The logic I had explained was that you really can't tell exactly where the heel is if there is a magwell on the gun. You can guess only. But you can clearly see where the magwell extends to. You're right though. There are a lot of opinions on the rules from those we should be getting clear info from. Probably no way to fix it 100% as long as we have multiple RM's, RMI's, new DNROI's every now and then. Best fix is to print it in the rule book probably. YEP! Should be an official ruling, otherwise it's not really a rule, is it? It's just a non-binding opinion. Edited February 23, 2015 by Parallax3D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 it would be good to clarify, but I have to say as a competitor and RO, I don't really care that much. I've yet to find any advantage in draw times based on the vertical positioning of the holster. The lower it is the longer a distance the gun has to travel to line up to my eyes. I would tend to be on the side of 'the magwell doesn't count' tho, just to discourage the goofball that builds a freak magwell so he can put his gun way lower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 For further clarification. Guns with magwells, the magwell is not the heel of the gun. Also check that you are less than 2 inch from the inside of the inner most belt to the firearm. I see a lot of holsters NOT in compliance with this rule. Especially Bladetech DOH hanger. Yeah. I had to add spacers to make mine legal once I got it and saw how far the gun leaned out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 That's why amidon should have gone to the trouble of making it an official ruling and getting it updated in the rule book. The logic I had explained was that you really can't tell exactly where the heel is if there is a magwell on the gun. You can guess only. But you can clearly see where the magwell extends to. You're right though. There are a lot of opinions on the rules from those we should be getting clear info from. Probably no way to fix it 100% as long as we have multiple RM's, RMI's, new DNROI's every now and then. Best fix is to print it in the rule book probably. YEP! Should be an official ruling, otherwise it's not really a rule, is it? It's just a non-binding opinion. Yeah, I know some guys at PASA you should discuss that one with . . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 it would be good to clarify, but I have to say as a competitor and RO, I don't really care that much. Regardless of how much we care don't we as RO's need to know the rules and adhere to them? I really don't care one way or the other about a lot of the rules but I can't allow certain things just because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 it would be good to clarify, but I have to say as a competitor and RO, I don't really care that much. Regardless of how much we care don't we as RO's need to know the rules and adhere to them? I really don't care one way or the other about a lot of the rules but I can't allow certain things just because of it. Yeah, i see your point, and if I shot at your club I would probably get a wacky magwell just to make your day more interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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